[Sordel]

Part of the problem here is the extent to which we're looking at one product in isolation. Go to any ordinary person, tell them what you paid for your headphone rig(s) and watch the look of bemusement on their face when you tell them that it was great value for money. VfM doesn't really come into it at the prices that we pay, and assessing any audiophile product in terms of the materials cost is crazy, because whether the manufacturer set a 1000% markup or a 10000% markup really doesn't make much difference in practical terms: there aren't any headphone amp manufacturers to my knowledge who are selling at prices anywhere close to the cost of materials!

As several people have said already, it comes down to whether this sound (and, let's be honest, this look) is worth that money to you. If Grado are ripping off the Grado fans ... they're probably in excellent company!

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

thats not necessarily the metric in which a serious consumer would choose to distiguish value for money

I agree on that but also have to say your typical quality seeking consumer would be more a one headphone,one amp type and nothing close to what we have in a forum dedicated to headphones as a hobby or way of life.

The person who would walk into a high end audio salon does not care what is inside,would not even read the literature likely because thier measure of value is totally hands on evaluation dependant.

The other type is the one with very little actual knowledge but IS a careful shopper so they do research.This type will go to the corporate site then google up reviews while comparing content and when satsified they have made a good choice even though they NEVER actually heard the amp will pull the trigger and if even close to what they expected will mostly be very happy.

A "consumer" owning Grado headphones could/would be 100% happy with the RA-1 for life unless exposed at some point to the next level of audio which would be all tubes or a tube voltage gain/SS current gain hybrid in the circuit path which will get you maybe another 10% SQ upgrade with an attrached 200 % price increase so it comes down to what you consider a bargaion with my measure maybe being totally different than yours.I have no problem BUILDING for that last 10% but would I spend for it ? No.I would not

so flip that to other amps in the same price range that are plug it in and play ready to go off the shelf and what do you find ? Amps made to shoot the middle because MOST manufacturers of headphone amps are not also headphone mnaufacturers and being such try to make a "one size fits all" amp.An amp that is playable with any compatible headphones you may purchase so can not be made optimal for ANY unless there is a very specific headphone used during the eval/design stage,the headphone the amp is voice matched to meld with,then "add-ons" included such as gain switches and and/or impedance matching to allow universal use even if not exactly a good match when compared to an amp that knows what it is and what it is meant to be used with.

In short if you design for Senns but want to have Grado customers you need to overdesign the output stage for high current drive,something you could even leave out thus having a better SQ if solely for senns,then add in a gain reduction switch if you want to have ANY shot at using the volume control and still the match is not ideal since the needs of the cans are direct polar opposites in which way even a "flat" frequncy response skews.Usable yes.Ideal no.

Gather up a group of FINISHED PRODUCT (instead of a box of parts) headphone amps that are known to be the Ying to the Grado yang and yes,the RA-1 is a bargain.One you need to spend considerably more to better.You can EQUAL it maybe for around the same price,you can TWEAK/Op Amp Roll other amps to force that amp to meld better but straight off the shelf to play Grado headphones you have your hands full trying to beat the price of the RA-1.

Just my opinion.One from my own personal experiences as a long time Grado user/Grado driving amp builder on what I personally find "pleasing" to listen to

 

[Rob80b]

OK, so take a Headfier and place a $400.00 interconnect and the RA1 on a table
and ask him to choose.

 

[joneeboi]

They'd push you over, take both and run because they love their wallets too much.

 

[greenhorn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Remember, 350 MSRP, dealer takes a cut, distributor takes a cut, Grado takes a cut and they all have bills to pay. There are very popular amps being sold now that are even simpler and have a 350+ price tag on them and everyone goes ape over them. Yet there is no way these other manufacturers have the same overhead as someone like Grado. Yet, somehow, everyone attacks the RA-1. Mind boggling, the drama folks continually need to drum up is really intriguing to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd /img/forum/go_quote.gif $350 I suppose is fair enough but do you realise these amps retail at £450 in the UK? That's $880.023 USD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes we all know your thoughts on this one man. We've been over it at least a dozen times in the last year. For those living in the UK, they have their options. I'm sure plenty of folks would love to own an EAR HP4 for 2.2k USD new. Oh...but they can't at least not the North American folks. Instead they get to deal with a 4.8-5.0k MSRP. Hmmm, see how that works? It is not just Grado. Deal with it.

Glad to hear "you all" know my thoughts...

The "

" which transformed you into a mindreader was actually added to a simple quote (Pink Floyd's one) because the software said that my message was too short with yours and PF's quotations... so I put a "

" instead of a dot.

However, you can read it as a "

" if you want, just to have your mindreading powers confirmed.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

As several people have said already, it comes down to whether this sound (and, let's be honest, this look) is worth that money to you

the argument can be made that this is not just a cosmetic touch but a very savvy design meant to combat system environment microvibrations and no worse plus a damn sight cheaper than paying another $300-$400 for an aftermarket vibration platform,many times no more than a pretty slab of hardwood with even prettier isolation feet.

Rap your knuckles on most metal cased audio gear and you will hear a sound that is most distasteful to the average human and if you think that ringing sound is not transaferring to your music (more so with loudspeakers) you are wrong-it is,and why the true high end audio gear uses very massive assemblies to combat it.In a SMALL enclosure you have only so much mass you can add before the footprint has to increase so the option to vibration control in a small chassis is to disperse it the best you can and hope you hit on a good combination that changes it to a more human freindly tone-wood mostly

I like to personally use combinations of cork,rubber and wood up to the point where I feel more mass is required (moving mechanical assemblies) then i shift up to solid brass,another "good tone" object that even when in sympathetic vibration mostly goes to the pleasing end of the spectrum.A placebo ? Maybe.But one that makes music where formerly there was a "something is wrong here guys" feeling so worthy in my opinion.

There is also this to consider :


http://space1.com/Artifacts/Other_Sp...e_control.html

look familiar ?

Good enough for NASA to send into space for assembly vibration control in an extreme environment so maybe Grado is not too far off base here with the combination potted assembly/wood case no matter how simple the actual device inside.Something i can't honestly say is behind many "cosmetic" touches that take a $50 amp and convert it to a $500 one on the basis of looks alone

 

[gmckay]

I tend to agree with you.

That being whether the parts are made of beeswax or embedded with gold make no difference to me, but how they make my particular headphones sound great is all that really matters most.

Given that the product is built well enough and the sound investment (pun intended) is there, I would like someone to explain to me why as an audio consumer should I care what is underneath the box?

Personally, I feel that a great sounding equipment should be rewarded with a premium $ that is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[Mikey01]

It's fleeceing the American public for a buck with an op-amp and a chunk of wood IMHO.

 

[gmckay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey01 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's fleeceing the American public for a buck with an op-amp and a chunk of wood IMHO.

Is that because you've summed up the cost of the parts or do you base your judgement on your auditory experience>?

 

[Rob80b]

In a consumer society the value of almost anything comes down to the eye of the beholder and what we’re willing to believe it’s worth.
I’d never spend more than $20 bucks on an ipod for example, and continue to scratch my head when there are dvd/vcr combos selling for $50.00, but that’s just me.

 

[Audiofiler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikey01 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's fleeceing the American public for a buck with an op-amp and a chunk of wood IMHO.

interesting is your comment, but not as your signature..which almost gave me a seizure from all the color

I all seriousness, there is a lot of R&D that goes into matching the drivers, selecting the proper proponents and materials necessary for the build, to the marketing, distribution, and any soft/hard costs associated with the overhead in producing this unit.

I have heard more clones than RA-1's and every RA-1 that was a true OEM amp from GL destroyed the various clones.

Obviously there is some magic and synergy in there with the Grado Phones, have witnessed and observed this phenom myself, and seen the RA-1 outmatch and outperform amps many more times as expensive, and as a counterpart to Grado phones..

With that said, there is a lot of fuss about the price paid, but if you are happy with it and can afford, the price does not matter as much. If you are happy with it, but still cannot afford, there are always deals out there to be had, if you are just plain salty and unhappy with the unit in general, the RA-1 resells very well, and can probably sustain most of your initial investment and move on..

I have been through dozens of med-high end amps trying to find new and better ways to push a Grado, and the mystery and overall simplicity between the RS/GS phones and the RA-1 is uncanny, and gives a real decent partnering for the clams..in my experience

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif the argument can be made that this is not just a cosmetic touch but a very savvy design meant to combat system environment microvibrations and no worse plus a damn sight cheaper than paying another $300-$400 for an aftermarket vibration platform,many times no more than a pretty slab of hardwood with even prettier isolation feet.

So my vibration control theory is getting some support (wood, gel feet, pile of glue, and batteries instead of an electric conditioner makes for a nice amp)

I think the wood on the RS-1,2 and GS-1000 make for a better timbre of wooden instruments. These things that look nice may also make things sound nice.

 

[tuatara]

Interesting thread, but surely one that has been chewed to bits over the years, especially when it comes to Grado products.
There seems to be a vocal element within Headfi who do not see Grado products as value for money, well who cares!
I dont. No one is holding a gun to anyones head making them buy the product, if you dont like it, dont buy it. Get a life, move on .

I have no idea what's inside the various Hifi items I own and don't care...my purchases are based on 3 criteria.
Does it sound good?
Is it from a reputable source(maker/supplier)?
Do I like the looks?

Based on those I make my choices and pays my hard earned cash and if it's a $300 amp with $30 worth of parts I don't care.Unlike many on these forums I have been out in the workforce for 30plus years and have a practical knowledge of how retail works.Hifi and headphones is another consumer product with chains of distribution and manufacture, where people have to make a profit to ensure a living. It is not a charity.
Never confuse your hobby with someones business when it comes to placing a monetary value on an item.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

So my vibration control theory is getting some support (wood, gel feet, pile of glue, and batteries instead of an electric conditioner makes for a nice amp)

I am a HUGE fan of vibration control in audio gear with me and wood being on the best of terms (do a serch on rickcr42 and prepare to be wooded out

).It mostly comes down to using dissimiliar materials in direct contact so you never want metal to metal,wood to wood,rubber to rubber but more hard/soft/hard/soft types and if two hard or two soft materials then not the same exact material.

Taking the Grado RA-1 itself you have a potted interior assembly taking care of any capacitor microhonics or any vibrations conducted from the wood case to the pcb which is in turn mated to a dissimiliar material in the wood case, a material that when in sympathetic vibration mode usually converts vibrational nasties into pleasing tones so we have isolation from internal and external source which in turn by using squishy feet between the "solid" of the amp case and the "solid" of the shelf the unit is on will prevent the two solids (in this case likely both wood) from talking to each other and reinforcing common mode vibrations.

Pretty damn slick for a "simple" op amp in a box


**

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am a HUGE fan of vibration control in audio gear with me and wood being on the best of terms (do a serch on rickcr42 and prepare to be wooded out ).It mostly comes down to using dissimiliar materials in direct contact so you never want metal to metal,wood to wood,rubber to rubber but more hard/soft/hard/soft types and if two hard or two soft materials then not the same exact material. Taking the Grado RA-1 itself you have a potted interior assembly taking care of any capacitor microhonics or any vibrations conducted from the wood case to the pcb which is in turn mated to a dissimiliar material in the wood case, a material that when in sympathetic vibration mode usually converts vibrational nasties into pleasing tones so we have isolation from internal and external source which in turn by using squishy feet between the "solid" of the amp case and the "solid" of the shelf the unit is on will prevent to two solids (in this case likely both wood) from talking to each other and reinforcing common mode vibrations. Pretty damn slick for a "simple" op amp in a box

I'm with you - vibration is huge. Also power conditioning. The RA-1 seems to address both of those issues.

Power conditioning and vibration control seem to be barely touched on at headfi. But go over to audiogon and it is HUGE. I know speakers cause vibration, but there are always standing/micro vibration that still plays a factor when listening to headphones.... of course if you have an ipod and cheap interconnects then these things won't matter much since the bottle neck is the source.