GRADO PS2000e MINI REVIEW........
Dec 2, 2017 at 12:20 AM Post #46 of 339
Looks like more of the same old same old. What could possibly justify the price increase?
Its in the listening. The Grado people don't just dump variations on a theme 'phones out there. The two top Statements and the two Top Professionals are distinct phones, wonderful but you can hear a progression in the effort to hit a pinnacle, to get something just right, without sacrificing anything important to the performance, and without the law of diminishing returns making this into more of the same. These phones are special, though, a leap beyond the other three highest-end cans, quite different in flavor than the PS1000e, preserving the sense of control and transparency with much greater bloom, a kind of acoustic generosity. I can't find a flaw, period, listening analytically. But in the visceral, listener response area, I have never felt so WELL TREATED by an audio component - listening to good music, especially something you know well, is a revelatory and moving experience. A combination of unvarnished truth and a warm embrace.
 
Dec 2, 2017 at 4:58 AM Post #47 of 339
Its in the listening. The Grado people don't just dump variations on a theme 'phones out there. The two top Statements and the two Top Professionals are distinct phones, wonderful but you can hear a progression in the effort to hit a pinnacle, to get something just right, without sacrificing anything important to the performance, and without the law of diminishing returns making this into more of the same. These phones are special, though, a leap beyond the other three highest-end cans, quite different in flavor than the PS1000e, preserving the sense of control and transparency with much greater bloom, a kind of acoustic generosity. I can't find a flaw, period, listening analytically. But in the visceral, listener response area, I have never felt so WELL TREATED by an audio component - listening to good music, especially something you know well, is a revelatory and moving experience. A combination of unvarnished truth and a warm embrace.
+1 Also for durability, and long-lasting design/style. These headphones are made to be inherited.
 
Dec 2, 2017 at 7:15 PM Post #48 of 339
The Grado people don't just dump variations on a theme 'phones out there.
I'd say the GS2000 and GS2000e are 'variations on a theme'. And I'd say the SR60, 80, 125, 225 and 325 were variations on a theme as well. They've been tweaking the same driver for 23 years. Not complaining (I currently own 12 different Grados and I'm (one of) their biggest fan(s)...but I'd really like to see them reinvent themselves and come up with a whole new driver design and sound.
 
Dec 2, 2017 at 7:58 PM Post #50 of 339
Hmmmm....There is no GS2000 without an e. And from no "e" to an "e" is explicitly an upgrade to an existing design, usually at no extra cost. Even so, the PS1000e was a distinctly refined and tightened up modification of the PS1000, such that people were generally surprised at how dramatically certain parameters were changed. So, if you're saying that the theme is Grado, then, yes they are variations, to the extent that they, like almost every quality brand out there, have a "house sound, or consistent qualities. Since they reflect the acoustic and engineering principles espoused by a particular engineer or team. That being said, apart from Grado's annoying use of some of the same peripheral parts (the widget, the gizmo, and the flying harpy that makes up the height adjustment of the headband), the PS2000e is an evolutionary improvement, quite noticeably different, compared to the 1000e.Each notch on the model hierarchy had its own personality, but all shared great midrange and presence characteristics. So we are arguing the semantics of my statement, mostly....acoustic and musical differences between top-end models are not subtle. Plus, for the newer models a tremendous amount of work and time went into the development of drivers (new driver, completely; new woods; new materials and geometry on the metal housings and diffraction grid; new headband; heavily modfied magnet and coil), and more modifications of the elements that were carried from one design to the next. Very little was carried unchanged into the next model The company really exemplifies solid development in the implementation of their ideas of dynamic driver design. They are happily recognizably Grado, but always give us a new and different window on the music. And - don't forget that unless they make radical changes or design new parts, they don't even change the price.....pretty modest, pretty fair. Have you listened to the latest Statements or Pro's?
 
Dec 2, 2017 at 9:49 PM Post #51 of 339
My bad, I meant the GS1000, not 2000. My contention remains that it is the same driver. on the RS-1e and GS1000e, the driver is pushed out a bit on the wooden surround, and thus ends up a little closer to the ear, resulting in more warmth and less brightness than the RS-1 and GS1000. The drivers are also tuned by removing the cloth cover on a couple of the holes on the driver vents, giving more mid/upper bass presence. You can see this by holding the capsule up to light and viewing through the rear screen. Again, these are 'tweaks' of an existing component. ANd the rest of the construction (frame/rods etc) remain the same. The PS2000e arouses my curiosity as it has a different hole configuration on the driver cap, but I'm not going to shell out $3400 CDN to find out. Local dealers don't carry it (understandably) so no chance to demo.
 
Dec 3, 2017 at 5:44 AM Post #52 of 339
do you still contend that grado's e series drivers are no larger in diameter than those used in earlier series?

HI All,

Here are a couple of pictures of the New Grado e series drivers. The larger ones are the e series! We are offering free shipping on all Grado e series headphones!






Todd
 
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Dec 3, 2017 at 11:36 AM Post #53 of 339
It's the same driver with a plastic ring around the outside to make it appear bigger. I've already pointed this out, long time ago. You can't see this? I have the GS2000e, and the diaphragm/voice coil circumference is the same as the original. I also compared the RS-1e with the RS-1.
 
Dec 3, 2017 at 12:24 PM Post #54 of 339
The idea of it being an epic failure - as a speculation only, from those who haven't heard it and are (justifiably) anxious about the price and their own vulnerability to temptation - doesn't make sense. There is no difference between this and any other flagship high-end product introduction - expect it to be expensive, incur grumbling about price (yes the law of diminishing returns always applies, but there are loopholes to that law), "how can it be worth it", toys for rich people and obsessed wannabes, statements about musicality being available without deep debt. But, Grado seems to invite lots of mixed emotions and polarizing opinions - similar to, though for very different reasons, the Linn/Naim vs everyone else feud of many years ago. Grado is ancient (is there any precedent for an audiophile company passed down across three generations, like a dry cleaner that started with someone's enterprise grandpa from the old country?); they make no pretense aimed at validating the wealthy connoisseur mentality; they are regular guys working out of a graffiti-splashed "townhouse" (an old brownstone between Chinese grocery/bodega hybrids in a grim and grey Brooklyn neighborhood); the peeps who assemble most of your gear are regular working stiffs, semi-urban moms and dads; they keep a certain Luddite air about them, ironic considering that they make cheap, fun utilitarian stuff as enthusiastically as they make and sell luxury-priced instruments like these; they're completely approachable people; for all their expertise, they make no gesture toward mystical mathematics, dominion over particles, fields and special arrangements with the laws of nature, and BDMAO (Big Dumb Mysterious Audio Objects, to abuse a science fiction trope) - after giving you basic specs, they mostly fall back on their belief in musicality, rather than positivistic adherence to electrical and acoustical physics. They don't advertise or give discounts, and as expensive as their high-end is, it is far LESS bloated than the high-end of most high-end product lines, even to the point of going long periods without raising prices, or, until this PS2000e, bumping up the prices of new models much above the last one. They have a simpatico with Schiit, who are high-end veterans now making basic to no-compromise mostly-headphone components at a (truly made-in-the-USA) fraction of what comparable-quality gear is marked up to (download the Kindle of "Schiit Happens", a funny, self-deprecating account of their experience as a start-up figuring it out as they went along - Schiit love to humorously skewer high-end engineering and marketing pretensions). Now, about the PS2000e. It is never easy for a regular person to just "drop" 2700 bucks on a pleasure item. But, Grado has a right to tinker and offer up a gadget they believe is distinct, successfully designed and manufactured, and set a price for it. And they are on the modest end of the connoisseur-audio price points, even here. The issue isn't whether Grado are out of line charging big bucks for headphones, since there has been an overpriced high-end industry for a long time, and all of us here know that; the issue is, are they creating something that belongs in the no-compromise niche of the market - if you want to make the point that NO component is worth what would feed a family of x for y months, or pay off a couple of credit lines. But that's a silly moralistic point of view. People can make special things and sell them if they want to, and people are free to buy them, using their own budget and conscience. Don't approve? Don't buy it. As to whether it is worth it, judged by the quality of its competition, and the rest of the Grado product line: I'm stunned by the music coming out of these things. And they are different from all other high-end models of Grado, objectively/subjectively (since my ears and discrimination and pleasure-sensations are the tools of objective judgment). I am the kind of listener Grado would hope for, since their products have always grabbed me as producing musical truth where it counts - I probably hear kind of like they do. I can't see any of their competition being as good, or, in the bigger scope of discriminating listeners, outclassing these cans. There are many listeners who use the same kind of language to indicate the same kind of experience when listening to Grado phones - there is a substantial consensus, just as there is about one in seven on Amazon who (actually) listen to Best-Buy IEMS and gaming phones and say Grado SUCKS, no bass, one star. But the consensus is large enough to confidently support the conclusion that Grado make accurate, appropriately priced transducers, in the context of this particular market, and that they are, by a function of elementary arithmetic, less expensive than many or of the majority of items in the same market niche. And, as an experienced audio guy, I can say that these things really rock, to a degree that justifies their existence, and, relatively, their cost. Different, and yummy.
 
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Dec 3, 2017 at 1:38 PM Post #55 of 339
I hear you loud and clear. And nice to see someone sticking up for Grado Labs. John Grado is a wonderful human being and has designed and built some equally wonderful products in an on-the-premises mom & pop environment. My house is full of his headphones and phono cartridges. But I can't help but feel that the substantial price increase on a basically tweaked PS1000e smacks of jumping on the high-price flagship bandwagon merely just for the sake of it. There are many Head-Fi folks who insist that the high cost of flagships are mostly due to the years of R&D required to come up with a totally new design. I don't think that factors in here. Grados original mojo was offering the best product for the lowest price (vide SR60/Prestige Black). Those products are still available and will probably always be available. Grado wants to keep up with the joneses but they need to hang onto their original claim to fame. As a Grado person, I owe it to myself to hear these but in my head, it's trying to justify the cost from my end. To those with an unlimited cash flow, they can enjoy whatever they want. Not totally sure what the expensive cans raison d'etre is anyway, as I would say that you are hearing everything that's there is to hear on most $500-$1000 headphones. But hey, if it takes 500% more funds to get that 2% "improvement", we have to do it. Or we go insane. And once the money's spent, that 2% automatically becomes 200%. So I'll have to order the PS2000e. Right?
 
Dec 3, 2017 at 3:48 PM Post #56 of 339
I think another factor to consider is the increase in demand for their flagship if they lowered the price. It'd be more difficult to implement a proper, traditional Grado QC check on each. Although this could be solved by taking pre-orders, still it'd overload their capacity. And thus risking releasing faulty units, which could damage their brand.
 
Dec 3, 2017 at 4:20 PM Post #57 of 339
Dec 3, 2017 at 5:50 PM Post #58 of 339
It's the same driver with a plastic ring around the outside to make it appear bigger. I've already pointed this out, long time ago. You can't see this? I have the GS2000e, and the diaphragm/voice coil circumference is the same as the original. I also compared the RS-1e with the RS-1.

it's apparent from todd's photo's that the difference in circumference of the drivers is attributable to more than just the outer plastic ring. the area of the driver itself is clearly larger, and then there are the comparative measurements that he also provided which are indisputable.

i find it incredible that you still maintain that there is no difference between the size of the grado e series drivers and its predecessors, and that by implication, grado engaged in misleading advertising when it stated that the e series drivers were larger.
 
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Dec 3, 2017 at 7:31 PM Post #59 of 339
I measured them myself, what more do you want? Have you measured them? Didn't think so.
Jesus..
 
Dec 3, 2017 at 11:19 PM Post #60 of 339
I hear you loud and clear. And nice to see someone sticking up for Grado Labs. John Grado is a wonderful human being and has designed and built some equally wonderful products in an on-the-premises mom & pop environment. My house is full of his headphones and phono cartridges. But I can't help but feel that the substantial price increase on a basically tweaked PS1000e smacks of jumping on the high-price flagship bandwagon merely just for the sake of it. There are many Head-Fi folks who insist that the high cost of flagships are mostly due to the years of R&D required to come up with a totally new design. I don't think that factors in here. Grados original mojo was offering the best product for the lowest price (vide SR60/Prestige Black). Those products are still available and will probably always be available. Grado wants to keep up with the joneses but they need to hang onto their original claim to fame. As a Grado person, I owe it to myself to hear these but in my head, it's trying to justify the cost from my end. To those with an unlimited cash flow, they can enjoy whatever they want. Not totally sure what the expensive cans raison d'etre is anyway, as I would say that you are hearing everything that's there is to hear on most $500-$1000 headphones. But hey, if it takes 500% more funds to get that 2% "improvement", we have to do it. Or we go insane. And once the money's spent, that 2% automatically becomes 200%. So I'll have to order the PS2000e. Right?

The one thing that stands out, though, after turning in my PS1000e due to the GS2000e being more "satisfying", fuller, more like a flowing musical experience - is that the PS2000e is simply far better than the 1000e at everything the latter does well (and I was amazed by them at first, the clarity and impact, while left a bit hungry by the deep but LEAN bass), and does a number of things the PS1000e doesn't do at all. So, to me, if this is a tweak, it an f-ing brilliant one, that opens up the music in every dimension. It is THAT good. So good that it is not even "impressive" in the sense that it has some extraordinary stand out trick; it is, with the right electronics, at least, and good sources, a perfectly clean window onto a musical event. I've never had that experience before. Maybe I thought I did, from some systems relative to others - but these sound like a vision fulfilled. Maybe its hyperbole - when I read back what I write, it has that tinge - but I am playing recording after recoding after recording, tube rolling (and hearing marked differences in TUBES, something I always thought was a world of minor differences. In principle, I agree with you about the diminishing returns thing, and I have a nice history of trading DOWN from more expensive gear to more satisfying modestly priced gear, simply because of how the music felt - and I never regretted it - thus I trust my ears and my musical gut. These babies are way more than 2%. Tell me what you think once you hear them. And, no, I'm not rich at all - I get capital once a year toward my work, and since my work always involves music (writing about, composing, applying musical principles to my field (psychology), music and changes in consciousness and emotional coping), I can use some to buy a goodie and sell something else to partially defray the cost. Thus, the experience I get from music through good gear is emotionally, personally meaningful - fancy stuff is not a casual thing, something to give me a zing of ownership and then get bored of. Grado have been onto something very special with the Statements and Professionals, priced them a little below the mean for their likely competition, and this latest one (the GS2000e, too, has a certain "magic" to it) is a dramatic KO punch of an invention. Not nay any means more of the same diminishing returns. Sui generis. Delicious, gymnastic in its abilities, but modest enough to just let the music speak. enough ranting from me....gotta sleep, and when I wake up to relieve myself at 4AM, I will probably listen to some Chopin before going back to bed.
 

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