[LCfiner]

the pleasure of listening is not mutually exclusive with examining performance. you seem to want to imply that it is. it is not. someone can enjoy headphones and be curious as to how they perform quantitatively. Whether it determines buying decisions is up to each person.
 
And if you are still smarting over the blowup in the HE-560 thread, it’s not like you asked a question about the HE-560 with classical and the response you got was graphs. the graphs were brought up completely outside your question of listening experience. You then derided (I assume in good faith) those who take measurements and everything fell apart from there as both sides got testy.
 
I also have never experienced a single headphone that had good measurements and sounded like crap. They may not be all to my taste but they’ve all sounded good. which ones are you referring to, specifically?
 
And, finally, none of the headphone makers out there use graphs to "market their wares”.Some may supply them with a purchase (Audeze and Sennheiser) but measuring performance - and chatting it up - is much more of a hobbyist thing than a manufacturer’s marketing scheme.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

  the pleasure of listening is not mutually exclusive with examining performance. you seem to want to imply that it is. it is not. someone can enjoy headphones and be curious as to how they perform quantitatively. Whether it determines buying decisions is up to each person.
 
And if you are still smarting over the blowup in the HE-560 thread, it’s not like you asked a question about the HE-560 with classical and the response you got was graphs. the graphs were brought up completely outside your question of listening experience. You then derided (I assume in good faith) those who take measurements and everything fell apart from there as both sides got testy.
 
I also have never experienced a single headphone that had good measurements and sounded like crap. They may not be all to my taste but they’ve all sounded good. which ones are you referring to, specifically?
 
And, finally, none of the headphone makers out there use graphs to "market their wares”.Some may supply them with a purchase (Audeze and Sennheiser) but measuring performance - and chatting it up - is much more of a hobbyist thing than a manufacturer’s marketing scheme.

 
Not smarting at all over any posts. I wouldn't call my responses a "blowup" on the 560 thread. Simply stated my opinion that anyone who spent $1K+ on a HP and then spends most of his/her time hooking it up to a graph plotter is crazy (paraphrasing myself). At least that was my impression.
 
AKG Q701. Crap. No life. To my ears. imo. careful not to ruffle feathers.
Senn IE80.  Shure SE535.
PS500 -- didn't live up to the graph posted on Headphpnes.com Which, as it turns out, is great -- 'cause I hate tipped up FR curves.
 
I never said there were any HP makers who did use graphs to market wares. In fact, you make my point exactly -- graphs are useless for consumers -- that's probably why they don't use them to market their cans --it's the testimonial from previous users that is useful.
 
 
p.s. I'm not implying anything about mutual exclusivity. Plain black and white ink. I am saying outright that, for me as a consumer, graphs are useless as a criterion for deciding which cans to purchase. Period. Mutual exclusivity was never an issue, so don't make it one.
 
cheers

 

[Claritas]

I remember the graph wars earlier this year on the PM1 thread. Well, the graphs were right: the treble is shoved down and rolled off. That's why the fans were so uptight about the graphs. Not because the graphs were wrong, but because they were right. And that's why they're still uptight about it.

Graphs can never tell anyone what to like, but they can tell us some useful information about how a product sounds. Anyone who doesn't like graphs can simply ignore them but don't tell me that I have to.

 

[LCfiner]

I remember the graph wars earlier this year on the PM1 thread. Well, the graphs were right: the treble is shoved down and rolled off. That's why the fans were so uptight about the graphs. Not because the graphs were wrong, but because they were right. And that's why they're still uptight about it.

Graphs can never tell anyone what to like, but they can tell us some useful information about how a product sounds. Anyone who doesn't like graphs can simply ignore them but don't tell me that I have to.

 
Good point. Another good example of graphs helping people out with a purchase was then the $2000 LCD3 came out and some loved them and others thought it was too muddled. turns out graphs helped identify a manufacturing problem that led some of the headphones to have an unintended bigger dip in the mids. It wasn’t that people were hearing differently, it was that some of those headphones weren’t up to spec. it was easier to pinpoint and visualize the issue with measurements.
 
Once the graphs made the problem clear, customers on head-fi knew what was up. Nothing wrong with informed consumers, imo.
 
edit: on the flip side, I’ve made some posts in the JH Roxanne thread this week because someone posted some awful looking graphs of the frequency response for the Roxanne but this is a case where the graph really, REALLY does not resemble the sound I hear and I strongly suspect measurement error. Ears and experience ultimately matter, of course. Measurements need context, like any data point.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

I remember the graph wars earlier this year on the PM1 thread. Well, the graphs were right: the treble is shoved down and rolled off. That's why the fans were so uptight about the graphs. Not because the graphs were wrong, but because they were right. And that's why they're still uptight about it.

Graphs can never tell anyone what to like, but they can tell us some useful information about how a product sounds. Anyone who doesn't like graphs can simply ignore them but don't tell me that I have to.

sorry, claritas, but could you show me the post(s) that demanded that you ignore graphs?
I'm all for rigour in discussions, but accuracy and logic seem to have taken a backseat to emotion.
 
prosit,

 

[Claritas]

sorry, claritas, but could you show me the post(s) that demanded that you ignore graphs?
I'm all for rigour in discussions, but accuracy and logic seem to have taken a backseat to emotion.

I wasn't even referring to you: I was speaking generally. If you're talking about the Oppo thread, they're there. My point stands.

 

[moshen]

...

 

[No Days Off]

...

 

[CanadianMaestro]

wow, major inflammation.
 
posting personal and sometimes, volatile and biased, views isn't exactly new on head-fi.
 
so, in the interest of moving on and discussing whatever turns your keys and mine, let me offer my most sincere apologies if I hurt any hyper-sensitive audiophiles out there.
 
(preaching?...really, now)
 
I actually have not read the 560 thread since my last post there. i consider it "case closed".
anything good? I had originally asked for impressions on the 560 vs. LCD2.2.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

   
CanadianMaestro, Good For You. But calling the folks who appreciate objective measurements 'clowns' or implying they spend more time measuring than enjoying (which we all know is not true) is just unfairly typecasting folks to further fuel some strange preachy 'higher than thou' philosophy of yours. Objective data is useless for you. As I said, Good For You. But you aren't any more educated (and IMO, ignoring the whole objective side you're less) and better than the rest who value that information. How about you just ignore posts with graphs and data instead of preaching how you think we should be discussing equipment?

My "higher than thou" philosophy is simple and unadorned:
 
1. I trust my ears. Nothing else. Final arbiters of decisions on audio. That's an opinion, not imposed on anyone else.
2. The music comes before anything else -- analytical, graphic, or otherwise. Said it many times elsewhere. Again, not imposed on anyone else.
 
And yes, I am opinionated, and sometimes abrasive.
 
"Good for You" is the best you can do here?

 

[No Days Off]

..

 

[Claritas]

Come on guys. Let's not turn this into the Grado Fight Club. We're all right--for ourselves. End of story.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

"Condescending" is in the ears of the beholder. I value full-spirited, no-holds-barred banter. And freedom of expression. If you take offense, rest assured, my remarks were not directed at anyone in particular. I sometimes shoot my pen off when I'm passionate about certain things.
I apologized already for my abrasive remarks. I don't apologize for expressing my opinions about time spent and appropriate criteria for deciding audio acquisitions.
 
And so what if I don't buy products from China? Some Americans proclaim "Buy American -- keep the jobs in the USA". Hats off to them. I do the same for Canadian and N.A. manufacturers. PM me if you really want to know the exact reasons I don't buy Chinese audio gear. I certainly don't want to start a minor war here by posting my reasons on this thread.
 
let's move on to other topics.

 

[swspiers]

Hey, how about those Grado 'e' series cans...
 

 

[LCfiner]

Yes switching topics...
 
….
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
Look at that hot, hot, hot out-of-phase 30 Hz square wave. ooh baby, you give me chills just looking at you.
 
 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

(from PS1000, probably my favourite headphone around)