[majkel]

I've got 21 years old Seiko Quartz, equipped with day/day of the week indicator. It's still working.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've got 21 years old Seiko Quartz, equipped with day/day of the week indicator. It's still working.

Well yeah - but we're talking about mechanical watches here. You know, springs and gears and 15th century physics.

Seiko and Citizen still manufacture them by the millions, not to mention the countless other companies that make them, for example The Swatch Group, which includes a whole lot of high-falutin names.

Timex started making mechanical movements again a few years ago - i hear they're actually pretty good but i haven't tried one.

I used to have a watch obsession that sorta tapered off when i bought an Orient titanium slide-rule watch.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhydon /img/forum/go_quote.gif Curiosity i guess. I find the topic fascinating.

I do too. Quite fascinating, anything to do with headphones and tech stuff really. Interesting info on the Dh-40s, I must have missed this info along the way, I'm also bewildered why many have not searched out the drivers in droves.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif It boils down to no side has any concrete proof either way.

Wrong.

Quote:

All you have is one person's claim. So Zanth, you have just as much evidence as EdT.

Wrong again. I don't just have one person's claim, I have the word by the owner of the company and creator of the driver itself. Why would he lie? I also have testimony from others who have spoken directly with John as well and have been told the same thing and are posting. Meanwhile all EdT has is a theory based on his experience in the industry in another city in another country. As Aaron posted, did anyone go to the lower levels of Grado? I mean, does it now come down to: "unless we see it we won't believe it?"

If this is the case, then why even ask the original question? Why bother if there is no answer to be taken at face value save for photographic evidence? If we can't trust the man who runs the company, then honestly, no need to bring it up, we can just post conspiracy theories all day and choose the juiciest one.

Quote:

So until we get some solid proof either way, all this bitching will go no where.

The problem is that we do have proof, there are various types of proof, it is just that in this case, folks are not willing to believe the owner of the company, so they want photographic evidence.

Quote:

Personally, I find it odd that many people have taken the grado tour, but nobody can say they have seen the drivers being manufactured.

Many does not equate to everyone and all those who have taken the tour and even been throughout the place are certainly not posting in this thread.

Quote:

Also, just in terms of production and financial feasibility, chances are they are outsourced.

Possibly, but again, this is mere speculation. This company has been around and been doing the headphone things for nearly two decades, there is no reason to think they don't have the capability at all.

The problem comes down to, once again, folks not believing a person which is all well and good. If it was just me claiming something random like EdT et. al., are doing how could I moan and complain? But when I went to the source and asked him outright and he gave me an answer and I reported that answer back to the community, it would insinuate he lied. If he lied, then he could lie about other things, trust in the manufacturer and product goes down etc. This is the reason for "all the bitching" because at the heart of the matter, people are saying John is a liar. That is exactly what is being claimed in this thread and that is what I am taking offense to.

I don't care where they are made frankly. If everything was outsourced I wouldn't be one to care. I own a Chinese amp, modified by the manufacturer then by two Canadian outfits, I own British gear made in Britain, I own a cartridge made in Japan, tubes made in the US and Russia...not to mention my portable stuff made in China, my stuff is from all over the world, I have no allegiance to any country of origin. No stake in anything at all. I just hate when folks call someone something and do so because they think they are right and want to spread their wisdom, yet have no evidence, credible or not, just speculation. That tarnishes someone's rep and that has a lasting effect.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj /img/forum/go_quote.gif I used to have a watch obsession that sorta tapered off when i bought an Orient titanium slide-rule watch.

Do you have a pic of your watch? I just did a quick search on it and I can't believe what one gets for $120 bucks on sale! Titanium, automatic movement and the slide-rule! Hook me up with water resistance up to 300 m and I'm in!

 

[EdT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, Rolex's are massed produced also. Very few of their entire product line are actually handmade. I once saw a video of their facility...very very automated. I don't know enough about watches to say definitely where Rolex stands but I have conversed with a few aficionados who claim that Rolex is in the 3rd of 4 tiers in terms of quality, build, movement etc.

I was just using it as an example, but you quite right they are mass produced as I also collect mechanical watches also.

Yes, most of the Swiss movements are made by 1 or 2 sources mainly ETA and Lemineux costing around $200 a movement into a $5000 watch and then are put into the casing of brands like Omega, Tissot etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thats untrue ericj, perpetual Rolex mechanisms are certified chronometers which makes them phenominally more accurate than the Seiko. I also doubt the Seiko will still be running after 70 years.

Wrong another public misconception, Seiko produces chronometers also that have a higher standards then even the Swiss COSC. They have watches such as the Grand Seiko that costs more and more accurate than highend Swiss makes.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdT /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, most of the Swiss movements are made by 1 or 2 sources mainly ETA and Lemineux costing around $200 a movement into a $5000 watch and then are put into the casing of brands like Omega, Tissot etc...

Do the higher end brands like IWC and Patek Phillipe make their own movements?

 

[EdT]

I contacted Primo today, they said DH40 and DH57 are discontinued, but DH59 is available from Japan, but here is the killer, the cost of a DH59 driver is $3.00 for 1-99 pieces and $2.50 for 500+ units ! So are those cans as good as $5.00 worth of drivers ? kind of reminds me of the guy writing with a $300 Mont Blanc ballpoint pen, when I told him the refill is only $8 !

So here is the cost break down for the typical SR60:

$5.00 drivers
$1.00 plastic (over charged)
$1.00 metal hardware (over charged)
$2.00 cabling/adapter (over charged)
$1.00 packaging (over charged)
$10 labour
Total Unit Cost: $20

Grado Profit: $20
Distributor Profit: Not in the US as Grado distributes directly
Retail Profit: $30

MSRP $69.99

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdT /img/forum/go_quote.gif I contacted Primo today, they said DH40 and DH57 are discontinued, but DH59 is available from Japan, but here is the killer, the cost of a DH59 driver is $3.00 for 1-99 pieces and $2.50 for 500+ units ! So are those cans as good as $5.00 worth of drivers ? kind of reminds me of the guy writing with a $300 Mont Blanc ballpoint pen, when I told him the refill is only $8 ! So here is the cost break down for the typical SR60: $5.00 drivers $1.00 plastic (over charged) $1.00 metal hardware (over charged) $2.00 cabling/adapter (over charged) $1.00 packaging (over charged) $10 labour Total Unit Cost: $20 Grado Profit: $20 Distributor Profit: Not in the US as Grado distributes directly Retail Profit: $30 MSRP $69.99

Don't act so shocked - keystone is SOP.

 

[Rhydon]

EdT,

I have about 6 DH-59 drivers left. Let me start off by telling you they are not nearly as good as a grado SR60 driver, in both sound and build. They look much cheaper and frankly i was impressed to see Grado holding such high standards compared to a larger manufacturing firm.

Grado has 20+ years of driver enhancements to fall back on. Primo is an OEM manufacture who has practically withdrawn from the headphone market currently producing only 1 product.

 

[grawk]

I'm confused. It's been stated repeatedly that there's no way the DH59 is the driver grado is using, and yet you continue to harp on this. Are you being paid to poison the marketplace, or are you doing it because it's fun?

 

[JadeEast]

A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.

Oscar Wilde

That being said a cynical look can be a very good thing when it comes to "hi-fi".

 

[EdT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do the higher end brands like IWC and Patek Phillipe make their own movements?

I doubt IWC do, but some of the special edition Patek are made in house. Thats what I do I buy mechanical watches with the same ETA movements inside $3000 Omega's SeaMasters in $200 O&J watches.

eta

Just an example of how inexpensive the movements are since these are even included with the tools in the kits.
http://www.ofrei.com/index.html

 

[milkpowder]

I'm fine with Grado making a nice profit on their products and I'm guessing you wouldn't really mind either. It's the same with every other item you can buy that is mass manufactured. I bet a typical Meisterstuck Mont Blanc (or any other bog standard resin, precious metal-trimmed pen) costs next to nothing in parts cost either.

As a side note, Patek do design and manufacture their own movements, according to my parent's watch dealer. Whether they actually make them by hand is another matter. From what I can recall from the visit to the Patek Museum in Geneva, they do put a lot of it together by hand. Maybe someone who actually knows what they're talking about can correct me

 

[Hase]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth /img/forum/go_quote.gif John Grado told me they are made in house.

For a fellow lawyer, would you define "they"?
Was the question specifically posed to address the drivers or the unit as a whole?

While technically in the US, we refer to testimony as evidence as well, it doesn't make me feel all warm and secure. While what EdT is presenting is not really evidence, it is pretty compelling. Enough to raise a question. For curious folks like me who never heard the "evidence" or the verbiage that solicited the "evidence," it's easy to imagine interested parties using ambiguous language (like "made") to address a rather complicated issue in a favorable light (I've seen companies go so far as to define "made" as "designed").

I wouldn't listen to mine any less or really care at all. I wouldn't think less of the company for saying "made in house" either, but it has piqued my curiosity.