[ssportclay]

Just generalizing,the Athenas are better at being speakers than the portapros are at being headphones but their respective market segments are similar.The Athena speakers will give you all of the detail and most of the refinement of any speaker under $1000.More money will buy you more bass and better imaging and of course nicer cabinets.I like headphones listening but they will only take you so far because great headphones are not available at any price.

 

[morphie]

Why are you saying not to compare whats comparable here? Speakers and cans are used to listen to music, and you can thus compare them. Personally I think you need to spend 15000 euros minimuml on a pair of speaker to start beating headphones, and this is AFTER auditionning many pairs and many setups. If you think a speaker set sound better than high end Grados, youre either listening to really amazing speakers, or you have hearing problems, either way, there is no speaker under 5000 bucks that can give you the level of detail and clarity that the 325i for example can give, and I think the reviewer was being very fair in pointing it out.

Surely speakers are different beasts as you all say, but hey, music is music, and if you cant tell what sounds better to you, your speakers or your cans, you can only tell they sound "different", then I suggest you do some more listening

 

[CannedHam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphie Why are you saying not to compare whats comparable here? Speakers and cans are used to listen to music, and you can thus compare them. Personally I think you need to spend 15000 euros minimuml on a pair of speaker to start beating headphones, and this is AFTER auditionning many pairs and many setups. If you think a speaker set sound better than high end Grados, youre either listening to really amazing speakers, or you have hearing problems, either way, there is no speaker under 5000 bucks that can give you the level of detail and clarity that the 325i for example can give, and I think the reviewer was being very fair in pointing it out.

I agree with you.. it is about what is "musical" to you.

I have not heard the 325i's. I did own the 325's, and truly found them amusical and annoying. I have Fostex cubes I made (60USD) that are clearly more musical. Some of the Fostex horns (see the Cain&Cain Abby for a commercial example) truly do some amazing things. For under 5k, I can get such things as the ML CLS IIz or the Innersound Eros (both on the used market in the 2k range...) that can lay waste to a lot of setups (and no contest vs the 325, from what I have read here, the 325i is an improvement, but not a huge improvement over the 325).

 

[morphie]

If you think the 325s is amusical you simply couldnt deal with the revealing highs. You are not making a rational choice here, just telling me you dislike the sound of the can and thus thinks its less good than whatever speaker gear you come up with. I am saying, again, that in terms of details and clarity, the 325s will be better than a speaker pair costing 10 times its price.

Maybe in terms of overall sound quality, including soundstage, you think speakers are better, and thats ok, because Grados arent made for soundstage, but as far as sound quality is concerned, a 2000USD speaker pair will not give you a better sound - just more realistic soundstage.

As for the 325i, I think they are a HUGE improvement over the silver 325s, so much that the 400USD difference between them and the RS-1s is imho completely ridiculous.

On another matter, I have personally heard the ML CLS IIz so I can give my thoughts on that. They are indeed great speakers, better altho different from the Dynaudio florostanders I have myself, but nowhere near the level of detailling and quality of the silver 325. I mean, we're talking about an electrostatic speaker pair here, literally crappy bass... Not even worth comparing to the 325s would it be in terms of how detailled the highs are or how good the bass is. Surely they are fast and have a good midrange, but its still not even close to the 325s paired with the right gear. The ML CLS IIz are not the right choice for a magical music experience imho... There are much better ways to spend 3500USD.

 

[CannedHam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphie If you think the 325s is amusical you simply couldnt deal with the revealing highs. You are not making a rational choice here, just telling me you dislike the sound of the can and thus thinks its less good than whatever speaker gear you come up with. I am saying, again, that in terms of details and clarity, the 325s will be better than a speaker pair costing 10 times its price.

Huh? Avoiding the abrasive high end is not a rational choice? I tied them with a cheap pimeta. I tried them with a high end tube amp with crossfeed. At some level, the emperor's new clothes kick in. Look at the frequency response of them. There are no surprises.

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphie Maybe in terms of overall sound quality, including soundstage, you think speakers are better, and thats ok, because Grados arent made for soundstage, but as far as sound quality is concerned, a 2000USD speaker pair will not give you a better sound - just more realistic soundstage.

Isn't overall sound quality the point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphie On another matter, I have personally heard the ML CLS IIz so I can give my thoughts on that. They are indeed great speakers, better altho different from the Dynaudio florostanders I have myself, but nowhere near the level of detailling and quality of the silver 325. I mean, we're talking about an electrostatic speaker pair here, literally crappy bass... Not even worth comparing to the 325s would it be in terms of how detailled the highs are or how good the bass is. Surely they are fast and have a good midrange, but its still not even close to the 325s paired with the right gear. The ML CLS IIz are not the right choice for a magical music experience imho... There are much better ways to spend 3500USD.

The CLS IIz's are under 2k. For detail, the 325s do not compare (I have lived with both), especially in ability to resolve detail at low levels. For 3500USD, you can add dipole subs, eq, and an active crossover (more or less what I have done). As I said, for 100 bucks, I can find a more musical speaker than the 325. For 3500, it is not even close.

I also offered other speakers (Innersound, Cain&Cain) that clearly outperform. Heck, I can buy some Magnepan MG IIIa's for 800 bucks that can clearly beat them (the Grado's cannot touch the maggie ribbon). Personal taste certainly comes into it so I would ditch any real attenmpts to claim I am irrational or the mythical $5k limit exists. As I said, there are very few real giant killers around... the 325's are certainly not one of them (in fact, I think they are overpriced).

 

[morphie]

And I personally think you have either very bad ears or havent heard them at all...

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphie If you think the 325s is amusical you simply couldnt deal with the revealing highs.

I concur. Some people can't handle the truth and prefer a "safe" sound. I've said this before...with top notch recordings, the 325i sounds wonderful. If the recordings and associated gear are too bright, they'll let you know about that too. When I want to be sedated and relaxed, or if I don't want to hear everything that's on a recording, good or bad, I'll use the Sennheisers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphie And I personally think you have either very bad ears or havent heard them at all...

Agree here too..

 

[CannedHam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphie And I personally think you have either very bad ears or havent heard them at all...

Well, please do not accuse me of being a liar. That is simply distasteful.

I have owned them. I sold them. I do not miss them. I generally keep my opinions to myself, but I do think people tend to praise too much what they own and reviews suffer as a result. I am being blunt... but I am also being honest.

As for my ears, they still test well and I know what I like. I grant you your right to personal preference, no need to be so nasty.

 

[CannedHam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle I concur. Some people can't handle the truth and prefer a "safe" sound. I've said this before...with top notch recordings, the 325i sounds wonderful. If the recordings and associated gear are too bright, they'll let you know about that too. When I want to be sedated and relaxed, or if I don't want to hear everything that's on a recording, good or bad, I'll use the Sennheisers.

As with anything, I avoid audio products that require specific recordings to sound good. If my system only sounds good with Chesky or Wilson recordings, it is not worth it to me (though I love some of the Wilson recordings for dynamics... just stunning). I do think using a Sonic Frontiers Line 2 with NOS Siemens 7308's and crossfeed would be as forgiving as I want to get. I did debate adding eq, but decided not to (wanted closed phones for the office... and I find AKG 271s preferable but only with a bright source... in my case a mod'ed Samsung HD 841... too dull with a mod'ed DIO for me).

Anyway... this hobby is about enjoyment. I am sorry you find my opinions so distasteful... it is simply a dissenting opinion with some experimentation behind them. I will try the 325i some time.

 

[morphie]

First of all I'd like to say that I did not ever make 1 post I personally called a review on this forum. All I give are my personal opinions of the gear in my setup and compared to other audio gear I have had the pleasure and luck to hear. Do not post nasty comments trying to get to me for making a so called review you did not like, the point of my post was not that one, and if you did not like the post I suggest you stop posting back to it and ignore it, as it is not addressed to you anyway.

Second of all, given the context, and seeing the numerous Grados and headphones I've owned and heard (thing which youd know if you bothered to read my profile) you would know I speak from personal experience. You yourself say that the 325i arent too different from the silver 325s without having heard the 325i... Do you think you can give me lessons on how right my opinion sounds on these forums?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CannedHam As with anything, I avoid audio products that require specific recordings to sound good. If my system only sounds good with Chesky or Wilson recordings, it is not worth it to me (though I love some of the Wilson recordings for dynamics... just stunning).

So you are saying that setups which require good recordings to sound good are not worthy... well I'm sorry to be the first one to break the news to you, but the higher you upgrade the more detail revealling and clear the sound from your system gets, and thus the more bad recordings actually sound bad. If you're into hi-fi to have bad records sound decent, then buy an iPod, Shure earphones and encode your CDs to 192kbps mp3s. You're obviously on the wrong forum.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay I like headphones listening but they will only take you so far because great headphones are not available at any price.

Now I know the comments have been trolling ones. You either:

1) enjoy stirring the pot.
2) have not heard many fine systems.
3) enjoy stirring the pot.
4) have not heard many headphones.


I notice you don't own a headphone amp. I have no experience with your receiver, but have you ever tried a headphone with a dedicated headphone amp? The results may be quite surprising. As for there not being any great headphones out there...that is just a farce of a comment not worth battling over.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth Now I know the comments have been trolling ones. You either: 1) enjoy stirring the pot. 2) have not heard many fine systems. 3) enjoy stirring the pot. 4) have not heard many headphones. I notice you don't own a headphone amp. I have no experience with your receiver, but have you ever tried a headphone with a dedicated headphone amp? The results may be quite surprising. As for there not being any great headphones out there...that is just a farce of a comment not worth battling over.

SACDmods 2900>Corda Prehead>SR225-DT880-DT860-SA5000
>Odyssey Khartago>Von Schweikert VR-1
My comments are not trolling ones.Perhaps yours are.You need to get out some more and gain more experience.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay SACDmods 2900>Corda Prehead>SR225-DT880-DT860-SA5000 >Odyssey Khartago>Von Schweikert VR-1 My comments are not trolling ones.Perhaps yours are.You need to get out some more and gain more experience.

Sitting in my house:

Sony R10's
Stax SR007
Sennheiser HE60
Grado PS-1
Grado HP-1 x2
Grado HP-2
Grado RS-1
Grado 325i
Etymotic 4P/S
Koss KSC 35 x3

I don't feel like listing all the amps I have on hand. This lists my immediate experiences, let alone what else I have heard. As for speakers, I have enjoyed on many occassion a Martin Logan Statement E2 driven by Classe Omega Monoblocks with the Classe Omega SACD player as the front-end. This is my boss' system. I know what amazing speakers can do. Even he admits that the above headphones are capable of doing things his speakers can't. Considering the top 6 offerings are some of the best headphones ever created, I would say my experience speaks for itself. Not to mention the fact that this is a headphone enthusiast board wherein it is not simply common knowledge that headphones are an excellent alternative to speaker listening but surpass it in so many ways. There are more than a few folks who could afford a spectacular speaker setup but choose not to, and it is not because of the inconveniences associated, but because of the superior sound. But then what do we know, there aren't any great headphones out there. What am I thinking? I'll just sell my lot for those fine $200 speakers.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CannedHam As with anything, I avoid audio products that require specific recordings to sound good.

Who says they require specific recordings to sound good? I just said they sounded great with great recordings. That's why they bother to make great recordings, innit? Or do you have a collection of exclusively cruddy recordings? I know I don't. Conversely, some headphones/systems sound great with less than stellar recordings.

Quote:

Anyway... this hobby is about enjoyment. I am sorry you find my opinions so distasteful... it is simply a dissenting opinion with some experimentation behind them.

Don't recall responding to you specifically. Unless you and morphie are one and the same? Yeah. I enjoy hearing all that's on my recordings. Sometimes. Other occasions, I just want to hear the effect of the intent of the artist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth Sitting in my house: Sony R10's Stax SR007 Sennheiser HE60 Grado PS-1 Grado HP-1 x2 Grado HP-2 Grado RS-1 Grado 325i Etymotic 4P/S Koss KSC 35 x3 I don't feel like listing all the amps I have on hand. This lists my immediate experiences, let alone what else I have heard. As for speakers, I have enjoyed on many occassion a Martin Logan Statement E2 driven by Classe Omega Monoblocks with the Classe Omega SACD player as the front-end. This is my boss' system. I know what amazing speakers can do. Even he admits that the above headphones are capable of doing things his speakers can't. Considering the top 6 offerings are some of the best headphones ever created, I would say my experience speaks for itself. Not to mention the fact that this is a headphone enthusiast board wherein it is not simply common knowledge that headphones are an excellent alternative to speaker listening but surpass it in so many ways. There are more than a few folks who could afford a spectacular speaker setup but choose not to, and it is not because of the inconveniences associated, but because of the superior sound. But then what do we know, there aren't any great headphones out there. What am I thinking? I'll just sell my lot for those fine $200 speakers.

Sorry Zanth, not good enough. Go gain some more experience. And grow some ears.

Hey, that was one of the quickest schoolings of a troll I've ever read! One punch knockdown.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth Sitting in my house: Sony R10's Stax SR007 Sennheiser HE60 Grado PS-1 Grado HP-1 x2 Grado HP-2 Grado RS-1 Grado 325i Etymotic 4P/S Koss KSC 35 x3 I don't feel like listing all the amps I have on hand. This lists my immediate experiences, let alone what else I have heard. As for speakers, I have enjoyed on many occassion a Martin Logan Statement E2 driven by Classe Omega Monoblocks with the Classe Omega SACD player as the front-end. This is my boss' system. I know what amazing speakers can do. Even he admits that the above headphones are capable of doing things his speakers can't. Considering the top 6 offerings are some of the best headphones ever created, I would say my experience speaks for itself. Not to mention the fact that this is a headphone enthusiast board wherein it is not simply common knowledge that headphones are an excellent alternative to speaker listening but surpass it in so many ways. There are more than a few folks who could afford a spectacular speaker setup but choose not to, and it is not because of the inconveniences associated, but because of the superior sound. But then what do we know, there aren't any great headphones out there. What am I thinking? I'll just sell my lot for those fine $200 speakers.

If you are so completely satisfied with the sound of headphones then why own so many?