[TrumpOrMonkey]

I'm in Australia, and I find it hard to get most of what is available in the US and Europe.

I'm considering any DAC which has a headphone amp included. I would also like to use it with my Studio Monitors going Balanced or TS/TRS to RCA. My budget is up to 2000 AUD including shipping.

Here the Grace m902 is $2100 inc shipping - It is over my price range but if it is truely worth it I will save up longer. I've always liked this DAC. I don't think I'll need to get an M2Tech HiFace with this one as it can be used with a USB input.

The Lavry DA10 - I can't seem to find a Lavry DA10 available in Australia, but from opinions I'm leaning towards it compared to the DAC1.

and the Benchmark DAC1 is $1600 inc shipping. (It'd be $1800 with the M2Tech HiFace) - I've heard great things about this DAC.

I will be using my computer as source with Foobar2000 and FLAC, the DAC part is much more important than the amp to me.

I was also considering Audio gd DAC9 MKIII + C2. I'm not sure which would be a better choice. I'm not going to be doing any upgrades from this setup, well atleast not in a hurry.

The only headphone amp I have heard was the Lehmann Audio Rhinelander, I thought that it was good.

I need some opinions.

 

[carm]

Today I was reading this thread: really-high-end-new-dac.
And I was impressed with this all-in-one device, though there is not a lot off comments about headhone amp, but DAC itself is quite ahead for future recordings playback. For most digital records it is quite enough or even to much having 24bit / 96kHz DAC. But Antelope Zodiac does it 64bit/96kHz.

Although, Mr. Dan Lavry himself commented that using such technology is overkill for your ears. You should read about it in above mentioned topic.
As I see in their shop list, there is contact number and e-mail for customers from Australia.

----
As for myself I am using RedWineAudio Isabellina HPA, which has DAC, headphone and RCA outputs, you can read about it in the following threads:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/red...na-hpa-441696/
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f70/is...ssions-437559/

Its a little bit out of your budget ($2500 new), but there was a sale on head-fi FS forums

EDIT
I've read that you were interested in any DAC + HP amplifier all-in-one solution: mainly in DAC1 or Lavry DA10. I am sorry, but I can not comment about these products. I haven't had any experience with them.

 

[Currawong]

The last time a friend of mine brought his Dac 1 to my place, along with a bunch of headphones and other gear for a bit of a shootout, listening with it in the chain after my Reference 1 the sound was unnaturally bright, and instruments sounded harsh and digital. Not to mention there wasn't nearly as much detail. While amongst regular commercial devices the Dac 1, and the Lavry DA-10 (which I've owned) are good pieces of kit, for either of them to build a DAC with capability of the high-end Audio-gd DACs would probably end up with it costing $5-10k. In fact Lavry does for $8k.

 

[t/sound]

I have had the same trouble, eventually took a chance, actually headfi faith and posts and got some Audia GD gear and I am very happy. I am on your doorstep, send me a pm and we could get together. Having actually heard a variety makes for a better perspective.

Shade.
Tom.

 

[khaos974]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif The last time a friend of mine brought his Dac 1 to my place, along with a bunch of headphones and other gear for a bit of a shootout, listening with it in the chain after my Reference 1 the sound was unnaturally bright, and instruments sounded harsh and digital. Not to mention there wasn't nearly as much detail. While amongst regular commercial devices the Dac 1, and the Lavry DA-10 (which I've owned) are good pieces of kit, for either of them to build a DAC with capability of the high-end Audio-gd DACs would probably end up with it costing $5-10k. In fact Lavry does for $8k.

I may be wrong so take my information with caution, I think I read on a website specializing in company profiles that Lavry engineering is company with just a dozen employees. It's not THAT commercial.

If someone could check this info, I'd be grateful.

Now, for the OP, both Lavry and Benchmark have built their reputation on making solid and professional products that have very good specs and measurements, numerous head-fiers have enjoyed these companies products. Audio-gd, on the other hand has built its reputation on through head-fiers' enthusiastic reviews, based on those their product are absolutely incredible for their price, however their measurements are "merely" good compared to the Lavry/Benchmark products.

Considering how you phrased your OP, You don't have the means to listen to them before buying. In short, it's a matter of choosing to trust very good reviews and measurements or glowing reviews and "merely good" measurements.

That's just two different philosophies of buying and trusting reviews.

 

[Currawong]

khaos974: What measurements?

 

[khaos974]

There were RMAA measurements of an audio-gd Ref one (not sure of the model) on a a Japanese board. Devoted head-then reposted them on Head-fi.

It showed a drop in the very high freqs (around 17-20kHz), I remember that KingWa answered that all high-end CDPs such as Wadia had this dropp and that it sounded more natural.

I think there was also THD+N, stereo crosstalk... Check my info, this post is all from memory.

 

[parrot5]

I've had both the Benchmark DAC1 and the Lavry DA10. I haven't heard any studio monitors (sadly) so I don't know what your preference is. If you value mids and vocals, go for DA10. If you value highs go for DAC1. I know some people find the DAC1 shrill, but it's the one that reproduces the high harmonics of strings truthfully.
And of course it depends on what kind of music you do/listen. DAC1 maybe shrill and harsh if you listen to heavy metal that has a lot of cymbal clashes, when you are not the drummer. Personally I went from a DAC1 to a DA10 and then back to a DAC1 a year or less later -- but I listen to classical mostly and can't stand the "middle in the music hall" type of sound as I'm a casual player myself.

I'm very interested in the Grace myself but haven't found a good deal to grab one. Definitely post your impressions if you end up getting one

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by khaos974 /img/forum/go_quote.gif There were RMAA measurements of an audio-gd Ref one (not sure of the model) on a a Japanese board. Devoted head-then reposted them on Head-fi. It showed a drop in the very high freqs (around 17-20kHz), I remember that KingWa answered that all high-end CDPs such as Wadia had this dropp and that it sounded more natural. I think there was also THD+N, stereo crosstalk... Check my info, this post is all from memory.

Yes, the drops were about 1-3 dB from 18-20kHz, which is inaudible. All DACs have to drop off to zero at 22kHz, the limit of what CD audio is capable of storing (Google the nyquist frequency). The choices are usually a slow or fast drop off, the former resulting in the least distortion. I don't recall other measurements. Any mention of stereo crosstalk was on the discreet OPAMPs, not the high-end DACs.

It's a bad idea to go from memory on these things, and it's worth researching exactly what they mean and how they affect or don't affect audio.

Back on track, I hope some day I might be able to try a Lavry DA-11, though I don't expect it to sound as natural as what I already own, nor other high-end DACs that use the PCM1704.

 

[SteveM324]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif The last time a friend of mine brought his Dac 1 to my place, along with a bunch of headphones and other gear for a bit of a shootout, listening with it in the chain after my Reference 1 the sound was unnaturally bright, and instruments sounded harsh and digital. Not to mention there wasn't nearly as much detail. While amongst regular commercial devices the Dac 1, and the Lavry DA-10 (which I've owned) are good pieces of kit, for either of them to build a DAC with capability of the high-end Audio-gd DACs would probably end up with it costing $5-10k. In fact Lavry does for $8k.

I have the DAC1 PRE in my speaker based system in addition to a Rega Saturn. The DAC1 PRE sounds anything but harsh and digital in my system. If it sounded harsh or digital in your system, I would look elsewhere for the culprit. IMO, its all about system matching. If you say the DAC1 is harsh or digital sounding on its own, you are wrong. FWIW, my speaker based system is about a 45K system.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

My god Curra it's like trying to paddle a canoe up river with a toothpick.....face palm X 2.

Peete.

 

[khaos974]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, the drops were about 1-3 dB from 18-20kHz, which is inaudible. All DACs have to drop off to zero at 22kHz, the limit of what CD audio is capable of storing (Google the nyquist frequency). The choices are usually a slow or fast drop off, the former resulting in the least distortion. I don't recall other measurements. Any mention of stereo crosstalk was on the discreet OPAMPs, not the high-end DACs. It's a bad idea to go from memory on these things, and it's worth researching exactly what they mean and how they affect or don't affect audio. Back on track, I hope some day I might be able to try a Lavry DA-11, though I don't expect it to sound as natural as what I already own, nor other high-end DACs that use the PCM1704.

Yes, -3dB can't be heard by 99.99% of "golden ears" and I did remember that point when I posted my previous post. But my point wasn't to discern which Dac sounded best, but simply to point out the difference of philosophy behind the designs of each brand.

In short
- Design a product to have good measurements and confirm that it sounds good later (benchmark/lavry)
- Apply audiophile designs that are supposed to sound good and verify by ear.
The question is do you trust your ears are 100% reliable and do you trust your ears will always match other people's ears?

 

[SoupRKnowva]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif The last time a friend of mine brought his Dac 1 to my place, along with a bunch of headphones and other gear for a bit of a shootout, listening with it in the chain after my Reference 1 the sound was unnaturally bright, and instruments sounded harsh and digital. Not to mention there wasn't nearly as much detail. While amongst regular commercial devices the Dac 1, and the Lavry DA-10 (which I've owned) are good pieces of kit, for either of them to build a DAC with capability of the high-end Audio-gd DACs would probably end up with it costing $5-10k. In fact Lavry does for $8k.

I havent seen a direct comparison between the Lavry and the Ref1 before, does the ref1 really sound that much better? I figured if there was a dac in the same price range that had a chance it would be the lavry, since its a proprietary design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveM324 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have the DAC1 PRE in my speaker based system in addition to a Rega Saturn. The DAC1 PRE sounds anything but harsh and digital in my system. If it sounded harsh or digital in your system, I would look elsewhere for the culprit. IMO, its all about system matching. If you say the DAC1 is harsh or digital sounding on its own, you are wrong. FWIW, my speaker based system is about a 45K system.

No offense, but thats like saying "60 miles an hour is fast in my car, not slow" right after currawong said his could do 180. You just think yours is fast since you havent driven his. So after that poor analogy lol im guessing ou havent heard the ref1, so you dont know how digital/harsh the dac1 sounds yet, because everything is relative

 

[TrumpOrMonkey]

I listen to mainly 320kb MP3 or FLAC / ALAC / High Quality WAV. I listen to a bit of decently recorded indie music in FLAC, some old Hip Hop albums in FLAC.

Mainly my Drum and Bass/Dubstep files aren't too great/well mastered but there isn't much I can do about that, not saying I need anything forgiving. But most of my well recorded music in FLAC is Indie and Alternative Rock, a bit of Hip Hop in FLAC too but it isn't all that well recorded.

I've decided on HD650's and not AKG-701's as I already have cold, analytical monitors and want something a bit warmer than my current studio monitors. But not so un-analytical and overly warm and fun as I do love my details.

 

[Currawong]

When I first had a chance to try a pair of Stax Omega 2s, it was with a DAC 1 as the source and my own DAC was the DA-10. I didn't have a problem with either then, except the DA-10's reproduction of violins and pianos didn't at all sound natural. Some time after that we compared a Northstar M192 MK1 that I had bought, since it had a reputation for sounding more natural, and a rare Nakamichi Dragon DAC. Again, it was with Stax O2s and a 717. Within 30 seconds I knew the Nakamichi was a league above the Benchmark and my Lavry. Vocal and instrument reproduction was suddenly vastly more real. The first thing I did when I got home and unpacked all my gear was start trolling Yahoo Auctions for another one, but $3k+ for the complete rig with transport was way out of my price range. I then later tracked down a service manual online and had a look at what was inside it. I found it uses 4x PCM1704UK DA chips, which I now understand, quite expensively, is an "R2R" type, compared to the cheaper and far more prolific "Sigma Delta" types. Recalling having seen the "1704" part elsewhere, I realised the company I'd just bought my amp from made seriously DACs using these chips and my search for a good DAC was likely over. Still, lately, every time I've compared the Reference 1 with other DACs, only similarly designed PCM1704-based (or rare TDA1541S2-based) DACs have come close or equalled it in detail and lack of a "digital" sound.

So while I don't think the DAC 1 or Lavry are bad DACs, we're just unusually lucky to be able to get DACs from Audio-gd that have a degree of technology and design that one normally finds in far more expensive DACs than their asking price, and, IMO from the limited comparisons with other high-end DACs I've been able to compare my Reference 1 with, are exceedingly good value. The only other way I've found to get similar bang-for-the-buck since is by buying a similarly designed vintage Parasound or Assemblage DAC.