[naamanf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif if the Beta22 is technically superior but doesn't sound any better than a commercial amp, then that fact almost becomes irrelevant - a footnote. the benchmark for performance is sound not specs; at least, it should be.

Both a Ferrari and a BMW are going to drive great at 30mph. But at 180mph I would venture to say there is only one I would drive that fast.

 

[FallenAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif if the Beta22 is technically superior but doesn't sound any better than a commercial amp, then that fact almost becomes irrelevant - a footnote. the benchmark for performance is sound not specs; at least, it should be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by naamanf /img/forum/go_quote.gif Both a Ferrari and a BMW are going to drive great at 30mph. But at 180mph I would venture to say there is only one I would drive that fast.

Nicely put, It's not that a Beta22 would not "sound any better than a commercial amp", it's a matter of putting that much work into picking the right parts and building it PROPERLY that COULD make it sound so much better than any commercial priced equivalent. Take a bare-boned (cheapest parts that match requirements) Beta22 and match it to a very nicely designed but lower measuring amp and you might like it over the other. I'll bring you the example of a nicely made AlienDAC (with film cap outputs) over the Audigy X-Fi cards. The X-Fi cards measure somewhat nicer, but you try to tell me the X-Fi sounds better and I'll laugh in your face at the joke of it. Measurements are not everything and comparing an amp that was built nicely to one that was not can mean a world of difference. I'd say in a high end system, you put a high-end Beta22 against any top quality amp and you'll see it either matches up or beats whatever it is up against, no matter the cost.

 

[greggf]

asr mentions that some of these advanced amps are so transparent that you have to be careful that your source is up to the task of pairing with them.

I keep hearing that, and I believe it, but isn't it also possible that some of the "transparent-to-source" amps are overkill? And that it's not really defects or shortcomings in the source that we're hearing, but, rather, amps that are not just overly-revealing, but ruthless in a defective way?

Is such a thing possible? Can you "over-drive" a pair of headphones?

I could make a case, subjectively, that the Zana Deux that I had over-drives. That the sound is too hyped, too exaggerated. That the ZD is "too good" and adds an artificial excitement to the music that is not on the recordings.

As soon as I say that, though, others will say that I need a better source. Or that I need to take up the hobby of tube swapping. Or that the Zana is, in actuality, not good enough, because it's single-ended and not balanced. And so on.

These could be true.

But is it possible that the Zana Deux and B22 and others are "too much amp"? If musicality is the goal, do we set out sights too high?

 

[Dreadhead]

You guys seem to have missed my point completely.

Where exactly has justin ever stated that the GS-X is just a balanced dynalo? My understanding from DIY RESOURCES - Kevin Gilmore DYNAMIC HEADPHONE AMPLIFIERS and POWER SUPPLIES
is that it was called the "Gilmore Reference Amp" when it was part of Justin's lineup. The only place and people I've heard that the GS-X is a straight dynalo from are here on Head-Fi. I know that in the past Justin has modified Gilmore's designs and created his own PSU's from scratch so it's very possible this is the case here. The modules say "Gilmore modules" so my guess is that the amp is probably unmodified from stock but the PSU could well be.

The beta 22 may very well be the best amp in the comparison technically and I'm not a person that generally goes with the "measure with your ears". Unfortunately my ADC does not have balanced input and this beta22 is only balanced so I can't hook it up like I did with my GS-X.

What exactly is that argument about ferarri vs BMW have to do with anything? Here we are not talking that we are talking lotus super seven vs ferarri. Sure one can't go in a straight line (power) as fast as the other but around a racetrack there's nothing between them. You sound like a muscle car person with your obsession with power

There is no doubt that the Beta22 deserves respect but it is not the most advanced audio amp in existance (probably the Halcro) or the pinnacle of human existence. Many here seem to forget that we are driving HEADPHONES and don't need all that power sometimes. I have no doubt at all that if I was driving speakers the beta22 would distroy the GS-X but does that mean that for headphones the GS-X is inferior technically? I think not! If someone has a measurement plot from a GS-X or even a dynalo driving load at the power levels for phones please let me see it. I'd also like to note that a lot of the beta22 measurements were taken with an Audiophile USB which is in no way real test bench level tech.

I really haven't made any decision at this point but this obsession with the beta22 with many here seems ill founded in my opinion.

In closing I'm going go and listen to music from my TWO amazing amps. I don't seem to understand why people can't accept that for the loads and powers I'm using they seem to perform very very similarly.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[naamanf]

I think your missing the point. If they both sound great with headphones that require less power then how will they sound with headphones the require a lot of power? And what if I also want to use the amp to drive some efficient speakers.

I don't think anyone is saying anything is wrong with the GS-X. Just that the B22 is more versatile (can be made for unbalanced, unbalanced with a ground board, balanced, balanced with ground boards for unbalanced) at a similar price point (depending on parts choices and builders of course).

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif if the Beta22 is technically superior but doesn't sound any better than a commercial amp, then that fact almost becomes irrelevant - a footnote. the benchmark for performance is sound not specs; at least, it should be.

Try attaching any of the "commercial equivalents" to a set of speakers and let me know how it goes...

 

[Dreadhead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by naamanf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think your missing the point. If they both sound great with headphones that require less power then how will they sound with headphones the require a lot of power? And what if I also want to use the amp to drive some efficient speakers. I don't think anyone is saying anything is wrong with the GS-X. Just that the B22 is more versatile (can be made for unbalanced, unbalanced with a ground board, balanced, balanced with ground boards for unbalanced) at a similar price point (depending on parts choices and builders of course).

Ok now that I can entirely agree with. It is much more versatile at the same price point! It is flat out amazing that the beta22 design is available in the public domain and are so amazing. NO ARGUMENT THERE!

I still think you're analogy was misleading for headphones which is the topic of this forum and this thread.

Oh and as far as the build your doing you are truly an amazingly nice person to share your skill with the people who got in on it

I just thought I'd mention that.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[grawk]

There's an unbalanced version of the GS-X. It's a GS-1.

Anyone who's willing to contradict nate's numbers on what it takes to build a b22 probably should have done it first.

The current GS-X is certainly similar enough to a balanced dynalo as to be called one. The power supply is justin's design, and he's done a great job on component choice. Anyone who's seen Dr. Gilmore's designs (sketches on napkins, generally) knows there is flexibility in the implementation.

Opamp designs aren't always possible to change the sound signature just by changing the opamp. That's a myth that's tied to the simple chip amp portable crowd, and doesn't follow through to every design based around an opamp.

Finally, my favorite compromise for balanced amps at this point is a balanced m3 with a sigma 11 power supply with the right choices made in construction.

For cost, I'd concur with the balanced desktop recommendations.

 

[pabbi1]

And the Millett Max makes a fine budget balanced choice as well but for cheap tubes.

Having heard an absolutely superior beta22 (Dallas Jan08 meet), it is laughable that a headphone amp can be overengineered. We were comparing that beta22 straight up with an insanely overengineered KGSS, and the delta between 650 and OII has never been a slimmer margin.

I will heretically say that SS, electrostatic and dynamic, were virtually neck and neck. Pity I destroyed the Blue Hawaii that day (bad tubes), but feel the differences between those three amps is very slight.

So, an extremely well executed design, by two of the best headphone amp designers in the world (period) yielded some VERY similar real world results - leaving the room at large to agree that only sources were left to argue over.

We live in a time where some really talented engineers share our passion - and we benefit. Pity all we can do is argue about who has benefitted the most.

 

[amb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreadhead /img/forum/go_quote.gif Where exactly has justin ever stated that the GS-X is just a balanced dynalo?

Justin does not explicitly say so on the Headamp website or documentation, but it is a well-known fact. If you open up the GS-X or GS-1 and examine the plug-in amp modules, and if you could read a schematic diagram (which is found at headwize as well as at dgardner's site linked previously), you'll find a part-for-part match between that module and the dynalo schematic. The Headamp Gilmore Lite is also the same design.

 

[Dreadhead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Justin does not explicitly say so on the Headamp website or documentation, but it is a well-known fact. If you open up the GS-X or GS-1 and examine the plug-in amp modules, and if you could read a schematic diagram (which is found at headwize as well as at dgardner's site linked previously), you'll find a part-for-part match between that module and the dynalo schematic. The Headamp Gilmore Lite is also the same design.

I pretty much assumed that it was the case as stated later in thread but my guess is Justin picks some of the best components he can and I'd guess the PSU is his modified but I again could be wrong. I don't really even care at this stage.

All this is moot because my ears are telling me that for HD650's they sound almost exactly the same (exactly the same to my ears at this stage). As far as I am concerned means that both are so close to the pinnacle that there isn't very much (if anything) between them and the only people who are likely going to hear the difference are the same people that hear silver vs gold cables (another case where the difference is measurable but moot).

I still don't get how people think more power is better. If a physicist is designing an instrument to drive 1w of power to the highest fidelity he/she does not design the same thing to drive 50w. This of course does not mean that the 50w design isn't just as good as the 1w design at 1w but it has a lot of extra capability that's no necessary for the task at hand.

Edit****
I just want to make clear in this thread just like in the comparison thread that I'm no trying to antagonize people but I'm going to say it like I see it. I'm still haven't reached any conclusion between the two amps for the phones I own and I think this may be the case for several weeks.

 

[amb]

It boils down to this... when I designed the β22, I wanted one amp that would be able to drive any dynamic headphone to its fullest potential without compromise, and even serve as a low-power but very high quality power amp for speakers. It would also be an outstanding preamp for its low noise and the ability to drive long interconnect cables without quality loss.

Since someone brought up Ferrai vs. BMW, an analogy in this case might be an Audi RS4. It could run with the best on the track, yet has room for passengers and serve well as your daily commute/grocery-getter, and all-wheel drive when the roads get loose or the weather turns foul.

Sure, there are singular-purpose cars out there that could match the RS4 in specific areas, but none as the all-rounder that it is. There are many excellent headphone amps out there, no question. But which ones push the envelope in terms of voltage swing, output current, distortion and noise, bandwidth and speed, and all of the other metrics as far as the β22?

When we're talking about a reference-class amp, merely "good enough" isn't.

Yes, I drive Audis.

 

[naamanf]

Much better analogy than mine.

I am listening to the RS4 right now and it sounds pretty darn good

 

[KarateKid]

Okay I'm a bit confused here. I thought a discrete design wouldn't use opamps, yet I'm told it's in the latest GS-X. What applications are the opamps in the GS-X used for in this case?

 

[grawk]

The opamps in the GS-X aren't in the signal path.