[rincewind]

Hi,

I know this is going to be a "it depends on your opinion" style post, but I am unable to audition the 600 series cans, so I'll ask anyway.

I have the senn 590s. They've had well over 100, possibly 200 hours of playtime (I don't really count..), but they still sound rather sludgey in the bass, and the treble is fairly harsh. I previously owned a pair of senn HD495 and found them to be much better balanced.

Two questions: Will I notice the difference in quality going to the 600/650?

My question is: If I'm after a balanced sound (my amp has bass and treble controls that I'd rather use than some "character" that I can't change, built into a set of cans!) then it looks like the HD650 is a better buy. Just want to get a few confirmations before I splash out on them.

Admittedly my usual source is MP3 from the computer (is lossless mp3 that frowned upon on this board?) But my music sounded incredible through the hd495 which is why I'm disappointed in the HD590.. I know it can sound much better.

FYI, I've been listening to no lower than 192kbps mp3s. Genre ranges from ambient techno/tori amos, all the way through to swedish death metal.
My amp (which the PC feeds), is some unknown OLD A55 Phillips ( model 693 AM-FM stereo receiver) jobby that weighs a ton and looks like its from the 70s. Goes very very loud and the speakers crud out before even half power, so I think it's ok for good quality headphones like these.

Oops, I digress

Anyway, is the 650 the go for as clean/neutral sound I can get?

 

[Eagle_Driver]

I think that both the HD600 and the HD650 are overkill for your setup. Your solid-state (I think) receiver isn't all that good of a quality, and your media sources (MP3s) aren't of the best quality. Both the HD600 and the HD650 require a megabuck setup (average price per component of at least $1000-$1500) plus a dedicated headphone amp with an extremely low output impedance and the best-quality recordings and media in order to sound their best. But most older receiver headphone jacks put out an extremely high output impedance (often over 1000 Ohms), which will definitely muddy the sound from the HD600 or HD650. (That is, even if you can turn up the treble to "balance" out the sound, the quality of the bass won't be good - you'll get seriously bloated, muddy, distorted, one-noted bass from that receiver jack, instead of nice, tight, musical bass.)

 

[rincewind]

I suspected I'd get that kinda response cos of the mp3 bit... I also listen to some cds.

Well.. The 495's sounded much better than the 590's do, so I *do* want to upgrade to something else, cos I know I'm not hearing the best I can at the moment. The 495's sit on the ear instead of around (like the 500/600 series), thats why I sold them.

As for the amp... Let's say I also want to future proof. I'll be buying a new amp at some point to match the phones I get. But the source will remain mp3.

 

[JaZZ]

What Eagle Driver says. Anyway, if you're determined to stick with your Philips receiver and want the most balanced sound you can get from a headphone under these circumstances, get yourself a (used) HD 580! Its 300 ohm are still a better load for a powerful and possibly high-impedance headphone jack than the HD 590's 120 ohm, and its frequency response is flatter.

 

[Coalescent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle_Driver ... Both the HD600 and the HD650 require a megabuck setup (average price per component of at least $1000-$1500) plus a dedicated headphone amp with an extremely low output impedance and the best-quality recordings and media in order to sound their best...

Eagle Driver, while you state that the HD650s need this kind of a setup to "sound their best," do you feel that these phones are enjoyable from a lower-end setup? Like an average CD transport, good custom interconnects from JMT, etc., a lower-end headphone amp (like a PIMETA), upgraded cord (Zu Mobius or Silver Dragon)? Assuming the recording is quality material.

I'm thinking of buying the HD650s /w an upgraded cord next (won't be for many months, though), and it would be kinda sad if they don't sound good at all without spending $1000s more. Wouldn't it just leave me more room to upgrade?

Thanks,

-Chad

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coalescent Eagle Driver, while you state that the HD650s need this kind of a setup to "sound their best," do you feel that these phones are enjoyable from a lower-end setup? Like an average CD transport, good custom interconnects from JMT, etc., a lower-end headphone amp (like a PIMETA), upgraded cord (Zu Mobius or Silver Dragon)? Assuming the recording is quality material. I'm thinking of buying the HD650s /w an upgraded cord next (won't be for many months, though), and it would be kinda sad if they don't sound good at all without spending $1000s more. Wouldn't it just leave me more room to upgrade?

Actually, the HD600's and HD650's won't sound all that much better than some of the much cheaper headphones when they're being used on cheap, low-end full-sized home components. So, yes, they WILL be overkill if you're NEVER going to upgrade (or if you won't be upgrading in the foreseeable future).

 

[nierika]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle_Driver I think that both the HD600 and the HD650 are overkill for your setup. Your solid-state (I think) receiver isn't all that good of a quality, and your media sources (MP3s) aren't of the best quality. Both the HD600 and the HD650 require a megabuck setup (average price per component of at least $1000-$1500) plus a dedicated headphone amp with an extremely low output impedance and the best-quality recordings and media in order to sound their best. But most older receiver headphone jacks put out an extremely high output impedance (often over 1000 Ohms), which will definitely muddy the sound from the HD600 or HD650. (That is, even if you can turn up the treble to "balance" out the sound, the quality of the bass won't be good - you'll get seriously bloated, muddy, distorted, one-noted bass from that receiver jack, instead of nice, tight, musical bass.)

My HD 650s sound very enjoyable out of my ~$1000 for ALL components setup. I don't think they REQUIRE your definition of a megabuck setup. 192kbps MP3s arent of the best quality but I think they would still sound good to most people. rincewind you would definitely need a dedicated headphone amp and a high quality sound card.

 

[Coalescent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nierika My HD 650s sound very enjoyable out of my ~$1000 for ALL components setup. I don't think they REQUIRE your definition of a megabuck setup. 192kbps MP3s arent of the best quality but I think they would still sound good to most people. rincewind you would definitely need a dedicated headphone amp and a high quality sound card.

Whew. It's good to hear that someone enjoys their HD650s with a setup that cost them something in that price range. I can afford to build up a $1000 setup to work with the HD650s, but not something where each component costs over $1000.

-Chad

 

[Natsuiro]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind Anyway, is the 650 the go for as clean/neutral sound I can get?

I don't think the 650s sound neutral to me. They sound dark I think. I feel that the K501s sound cleaner and more neutral than the 650s.

 

[spilner]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nierika My HD 650s sound very enjoyable out of my ~$1000 for ALL components setup. I don't think they REQUIRE your definition of a megabuck setup. 192kbps MP3s arent of the best quality but I think they would still sound good to most people. rincewind you would definitely need a dedicated headphone amp and a high quality sound card.

I agree. From my experience, these cans sound bad only with really weak equipment (in my case - the AV receiver, the headphone out of my CD player, and all of my portables). And although I do normally use them with a dedicated headphone amp, I also found out that I can achieve really nice results with headphone outs of my old, upper-middle class equipment. For instance, an old and sturdy Yamaha integrated 390 Watt amplifier does a pretty good job driving them while I'm working at the computer - offering plenty of power, it also forgives a lot - like being plugged into an SB Live, for instance

. And believe you me, these MP3s really do sound enjoyable. This setup pretty much forgives most of their imperfections, resulting in a smooth, relaxed, non-fatiguing sound (which has absolutely nothing to do with what you get from a good source, but still the best I've heard out of a PC).

 

[rincewind]

Interesting!

I think I should have said my amp looks like its from the 80's.. 70's was a bit over an exaggeration hehe.

Am I able to test what its output impedance is with an ohmeter?

An in case there's some older ppl out there who might know what it is:

Its a Phillips, has the label "AM-FM Stereo Receiver" and "693" written on it, and it's silver. I've rung up Phillips but they had no idea what it was. Have also searched teh web for hours to no avail. I've had it open before and there's about 5 massive PCBs and the radio frequency adjuster is an old string and pulley looking job. its solidly built - it weighs about 7-8 kilograms! My dad and I have been driving all kinds of speakers and headphones with them.

I've got a feeling its not an absolute POS, but gave up trying to identiy it or determine its specifications a while ago. Now my interest has been rekindled

Any ideas?

I have an SB Live I know it's not audiophile stuff, but i think mp3's deserve more credit than ppl give them. I just know mine have sounded much much better than they do now on the 590s.

From the comments so far. I'm thinking of getting the HD650's, expecting them to be only a bit better (worst case), but to really open up when I get a new amp and when I use better sources.

 

[kyrie]

The HD580/600/650 can sound enjoyable out of a relatively low-budget setup ($500 for source + amp).
They won't "sound their best" until you get the Headroom Blockhead. Or the balanced Dynahi. Or something along those lines. If you like the Senn sound, the HD650 will last and improve through every source or amp upgrade in the future, all the way up to $X000 setups.

Incidentally, my friend prefered my HD580 to his HD590 by a great margin, even unamped. He commented that it sounded "more balanced" and had "better bass." The reply I thought of but didn't say out loud, was that with an amp, the HD590 wouldn't even be comparable to the HD580 in the first place.

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind I know it's not audiophile stuff, but i think mp3's deserve more credit than ppl give them. I just know mine have sounded much much better than they do now on the 590s.

Oh, MP3s' sound quality depends largely on the encoder used. The better MP3 codecs to use are LAME and Fraunhofer; the poorer codec, Xing.

 

[ya8282]

I won't explain in much detail since I think other people have already brought the issues up.

If you're going to buy the HD650's, don't expect any improvement in sound of your setup over the HD590's. In fact, the HD650's could end up sounding worse, because of the extra detail they pick up (artifacts in your mp3's and deficiencies in your source+amp). You should invest in source+amp at the same time as purchasing the HD650's if your intention is to improve the sound.

What was your second question? Also I think you meant lossy mp3s, not lossless.

 

[sleepkyng]

consider your setup, and don't get the 650's.

eagle driver is merely saying that for the money you could have better results buying a more accomodating pair of cans and more cds or other stuff (ic's, etc.)

my 600's sound fine with apple lossless, but really shine and earn their money with my vinyl rig.

cheers