[miceblue]

I personally find your marketing methods highly questionable, completely unethical

Fiio works with the community here, have delivered on time, and only has good things to say about their competition.  I've never seen them run-down a competitor in public.  Why - because they don't have to.  They are confident in their own ability.  That is the sign of a classy company and honest campaign.

IMO - yours is not.

Well this sounds familiar.

Geek Out vs AudioQuest Dragonfly vs iFi iDSD vs Meridian Explorer

http://geek.lhlabs.com/force/geekout/898-geek-out-vs-the-others-3rd-installment

Looks good, but isn't this bad business practice? You're basically saying "look how inferior the competition is."

It's one thing to do it in a more ethical way by saying "product X beats out the competition" like they do in many scientific test between products, but it's another to basically flat out say "product X beats out products A, B, and C."

V-MODA chose to do the former when designing the M-100 and tweaking their manufacturing process. They did measurements of the M-100 and their quality control against the competition, but they never said what companies/products for ethical and good business practice reasons.

I don't get it. What's unethical about it.

You're basically saying how superior your device is and bragging about it. It's like a cheap shot really.

Name one other audio company who calls out the competition (and a specific model in particular) for being not as good. I can't think of any at the top of my head.

 

[Brooko]

My issue is not so much with the comparison matrix - if they were actually publishing all the correct figures.  It's the underhanded way they've presented some of them to make their Flex look better than the X5.
 
If they are so confident the Flex is better than the X5 - then why not be entirely truthful?
 
I see they finally fixed the DAC claim - but still several others are falsely misrepresented (including storage "potential").  Continuing to do this is both unethical, and highly questionable.  If thy have to resort to this to promote something they think is superior (ie falsely misrepresenting the competition in order to make their product "appear" better), then its not something I would even consider.

 

[rekondita]

I have to say that this is becoming a really negative thread.  Sure, LH could use some work in the customer service department, particularly if there are backers that haven't been updated on the product that they have been expecting (i.e. http://lhlabs.com/support/updates/pulse-production-roadmap.html basically says everything is done and shipped when there are still complaints), but just because they use a different business model doesn't mean that they are inferior or unethical IMO.  I'd more readily say unorganized.
 
Keep in mind that their business development model--indiegogo--is a crowd-sourcing campaign.  They need to give me some compelling reason to invest $1k in something that I can't get my hands on immediately.  A simple image of a touch screen tease with two ESS DACs and a large removable battery is not going to do it (well, maybe...).
 
Are these ads competitive by consequence--sure.  They're competing with existing, well-known products and they want to see a return.  No one seems to be eulogizing the poor iPod that was singled out!  (if only that Apple company succeeded).  I see nothing new in these marketing tactics; that's the kind of relationship we've created with companies.  You're not going to get the lowest price and zero wait when it's crowd-sourced.
 
Edit: formatting

 

[miceblue]

My issue is not so much with the comparison matrix - if they were actually publishing all the correct figures.  It's the underhanded way they've presented some of them to make their Flex look better than the X5.

If they are so confident the Flex is better than the X5 - then why not be entirely truthful?

I see they finally fixed the DAC claim - but still several others are falsely misrepresented (including storage "potential").  Continuing to do this is both unethical, and highly questionable.  If thy have to resort to this to promote something they think is superior (ie falsely misrepresenting the competition in order to make their product "appear" better), then its not something I would even consider.

True, and I actually caught the standalone DAC thing in the other Wave thread about a week ago.

Eh...

The last time I checked, the X5 has always had the ability to be used as a standalone DAC.

Their original Wave campaign didn't have the X5 comparison chart, so I'm not sure why they suddenly decided the need for it (they still had the stupid "music resolution race" graphic though).
https://web.archive.org/web/20140722203210/https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/geek-wave-it-s-not-a-next-gen-ipod-it-s-a-no-compromise-portable-music-player

As for the Geek Out vs others measurements they did above, they originally didn't have the disclaimer that their measurements were with a 90 kHz bandwidth, which most manufacturers don't do.

 

[jamor]

Maybe they are trying to hit a certain demographic?  
 
I would have bit on marketing that concentrated on a superior dac/amping for up to 192k then something that plays DSD considering I've never download a DSD file in my entire life nor do I have any idea where to get one... nor do I care.  

 

[Brooko]

  but just because they use a different business model doesn't mean that they are inferior or unethical IMO.  I'd more readily say unorganized.

 
When they quote the competition's specs and features, and lie about them to make their own release "look better" on paper - that to me is unethical. Maybe you and I have a different interpretation of what ethics are.

 

[purk]

Unless they can deliver my Pulse-X relatively soon (15 months delay now), I will not buy any more of their products.  In a way, I'm actually pulling for them (or others DAP manufacturers) to succeed b/c I honestly can't stand  Astell & Kern ridiculous pricing strategy.  

 

[rekondita]

   
When they quote the competition's specs and features, and lie about them to make their own release "look better" on paper - that to me is unethical. Maybe you and I have a different interpretation of what ethics are.

I follow you and appreciate your take on it.  To me LH is just playing in a different sales game--they need backers.  They don't have final specs because the campaign isn't over; if they knew exactly what the product was going to be, then would just have it on a website where it can be ordered and shipped immediately (i.e. FiiO, A&K, etc.).  Again--that's not their game.
 
The backers need compelling claims to buy-in, particularly when not everything has been finalized.  In my observation the nature of crowd-funding is crazy competitive; there are always claims comparing the new versus the new-and-potential.  They're not denouncing the other players or saying that other players' specs are inadequate for hi-rez listening; they are rather using it as a backdrop to tout potential device capabilities.  
 
Quote from the IGG site, "We're trying to save the portable music player, and we're not alone. Along with friends like Sony, Pono, and Astell & Kern, we're dedicated to making a small, portable device that's created for one task: to uncompromisingly playback high resolution music."

 

[Brooko]

  I follow you and appreciate your take on it.  To me LH is just playing in a different sales game--they need backers.  They don't have final specs because the campaign isn't over; if they knew exactly what the product was going to be, then would just have it on a website where it can be ordered and shipped immediately (i.e. FiiO, A&K, etc.).  Again--that's not their game.
 
The backers need compelling claims to buy-in, particularly when not everything has been finalized.  In my observation the nature of crowd-funding is crazy competitive; there are always claims comparing the new versus the new-and-potential.  They're not denouncing the other players or saying that other players' specs are inadequate for hi-rez listening; they are rather using it as a backdrop to tout potential device capabilities.  
 
Quote from the IGG site, "We're trying to save the portable music player, and we're not alone. Along with friends like Sony, Pono, and Astell & Kern, we're dedicated to making a small, portable device that's created for one task: to uncompromisingly playback high resolution music."

 
OK - so why in their comparison do they list total possible storage as 4Tb. but for Fiio as 256 Gb.  They use dual SDXC.  Fiio uses dual micro SDXC.  Both have same theoretical limits.  Why not actually tell it like it is.  Why lie about the competition.  They should be stating (as potential storage) 4Tb for both.
 
Take that, the original false statement about the DAC, then the little "marketing speak" bits when describing the X5 compared to theirs.  it's blatantly clear they're trying to put the Flex in a better light.  But their doing it by misrepresenting the facts.  If they're this unethical in the way they are advertising - what else might also be wrong with the project?
 
I actually genuinely feel sorry for all the backers.
 
I'll unsub from the thread now.  No point beating a dead horse.

 

[acain]

I don't mind companies comparing there products to others, just like cell phone companies do on tv. But it bothered me when they compared the Flex to the Fiio and seemed to forgot to include the output power witch is lower on the Flex. That just isn't right it's dirty and low. Compare all you want but don't change the facts there is always going to be positive and negatives between 2 products. And before any company compares there product to an other they better have all the facts and don't come back later and say it was a mistake. Companies can do what they want but first impressions can kill a company. They should have made demo units and had reviewers put them through there passes and asked for feed back of what could be added and changed.

 

[rekondita]

   
OK - so why in their comparison do they list total possible storage as 4Tb. but for Fiio as 256 Gb.  They use dual SDXC.  Fiio uses dual micro SDXC.  Both have same theoretical limits.  Why not actually tell it like it is.  Why lie about the competition.  They should be stating (as potential storage) 4Tb for both.

Where does FiiO claim that the X5 can handle a capacity up to 4TB?
 

 
Take that, the original false statement about the DAC, then the little "marketing speak" bits when describing the X5 compared to theirs.  it's blatantly clear they're trying to put the Flex in a better light.  But their doing it by misrepresenting the facts.  If they're this unethical in the way they are advertising - what else might also be wrong with the project?

They corrected the DAC misrepresentation, which was unfortunate but not a deal-breaker, I suspect.  Yes, they want people to buy the Flex and they do compare specs to that which FiiO listed for the X5.  FiiO is singled out because it is a fantastic product for a fantastic price.
 

  I actually genuinely feel sorry for all the backers.

I don't understand why you feel the need to feel sorry for the backers.  It's our own money we're spending.

 

[Brooko]

  Where does FiiO claim that the X5 can handle a capacity up to 4TB?

 
They don't.  All they state is what it currently supports - 256Gb (128x2), but they also state on their website - will support 512Gb, 1TB, etc with future firmware.  Even just doing a simple search will yield that they support micro SDXC.  Micro SDXC will support as a standard up to 2Tb per card.
 
My question is when supplying the exact same logic - and stating "total possible storage" - why don't they state 4Tb for both. They both use SDXC standard - and both have theoretical possible storage limit of 4Tb.
 
Conveniently missing information, or deliberately stating false truths?  That is something each one of us will interpret.  If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt - OK.  In line with their other performance to date, I see something deliberate.
 

 
They corrected the DAC misrepresentation, which was unfortunate but not a deal-breaker, I suspect.  Yes, they want people to buy the Flex and they do compare specs to that which FiiO listed for the X5.  FiiO is singled out because it is a fantastic product for a fantastic price.

 
Agree - but in light of their other claims - I personally find it pretty suspect.  YMMV.
 

 
I don't understand why you feel the need to feel sorry for the backers.  It's our own money we're spending.

 
Yet still I feel empathy for fellow members of my own on-line community who have spent money on a DAP and may be waiting many months to actually see it.  I got a PM from a youngster 2 days ago asking me what I thought about Fiio vs Geek - and so I told him I had no idea re audio quality, but was suspect about business practise.  Poor kid is really upset now because he invested money based on the thought that he should get the unit within a short time period.  After now reading about the delays etc - he's understandably upset, and would have gone with another company if he realised.  And before you say "buyer beware" - he's just a youngster.  I don't know about you personally - but I DO feel empathy.
 
Edited - spelling

 

[labjr]

 
We are shipping Pulse units as we speak, and will begin to get more Pulse X models out the door come next week, We are in the last quarter of getting the Pulse unit to the masses, when you include the development, production and fulfillment of the Pulse which by the way typically will take any other company much longer then two years to do. 

You've been drinking too much of the LH kool-aid. If it takes two years then why did you have a May 2014 delivery date during the campaign? If you didn't already have people's money most would be long gone and you'd be out of business by now. 

 

[rcoleman1]

Can't wait to get mine! I ordered the highest end model because my Geek Out is awesome.

 

[rcoleman1]

This thing is gonna be freakin' awesome! My second post on this subject