[Needles]

Well, I do hook the PC up to the big screen plasma several times a month for ultimate gaming nonsense. I love my PC audio, but I've never been a home theatre buff (though I assume there's a lot of overlap). Until now, I've been hooking the PC to the television via GFX HDMI out and simply using my headphones connected to the sound card. It would be really nice to have both sound AND video on the television. However, I do not own any home theatre equipment. No receiver, no speakers ... I have a feeling this could potentially lead me down an expensive (albiet entertaining) road!

I'll eventually be bringing home a pair of Audioengine A5s for the PC. It'd be a simple matter to hook those up to the television too, whenever the PC makes the trip to big screen land. Then I just need a sub ...

Back on track, ASUS versus Auzentech, I'm definitely settled on either the Auzentech Forte or the HTHD, leaning toward the HTHD for future proofing if nothing else. I know if I don't get HDMI capability, a year down the road I'll be kicking myself. I've also heard that the HTHD doesn't suffer from the buzzing issues many have reporting using the Forte too close to their GFX card (something I will be unable to avoid, given the slot config on the mobo). Need to do a little more research to ensure the HTHD is in fact hardware identical (if not improved) to the Forte, but other than that I'm fairly sure I've made my decision.

 

[ROBSCIX]

This card sends all the high definition standards through analog output and through HDMI. You do not need a receiver to get the support. This feature is one aspect that has many interested in this card.

Enjoy your new card.

 

[Needles]

Thanks! According to the Auzentech website, the HTHD doesn't actually require any internal connections. It's all external. HDMI out from the GFX card (using an adaptor) to the HDMI in on the HTHD, all on the rear panels. Then HMDI out from the sound card to the television and analog I/O to the speakers or HDMI should I decide to snap up a receiver some day. Sounds like the way to go. I'll be covered through years of external audio upgrades.

In the absence of a receiver, I suppose one could forgo the connection between the GFX and HTHD and connect the GFX directly to the television via HDMI or DVI and connect the analog I/O to the speakers, at least until one decides to send both audio and video to a receiver. Either way, the future potential is quite impressive.

 

[ear8dmg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do you one better. A while back a few of us developed the Velbac application. This let you use two card and link them internally. The whole idea was you could use a Creative card for the processor and another card for the output card. The CL card does all the gaming audio processing and the audio is intercepted in digital form and sent to the output card. So for instance, you could use a X-Fi X-Music and a X-Meridian 7.1 and have all the gaming features of the X-Fi chip and all the features and sound quality of the X-Meridian 7.1. There are many different configurations for this application but you see the idea as the application was written for gaming. The idea was to have all the features of the gaming card but have much higher sound quality then what was available from any one card. Funny what you wrote, originally this application was called BOBW.....which meant the Best of Both Worlds. The applications worked perfect on XP and Vista but personally, I haven't had time to test it on Win7. Actually, I have been wanting to set the system back up...maybe I will give it a go tomorrow.

Rob - did you ever get this working with Alchemy? I tried two cards in one system and it was fine - except for legacy games where alchemy was required. DS3D-GX on the xonar worked but that didn't get EAX working on quite a few games.

 

[ear8dmg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Needles /img/forum/go_quote.gif EDIT: Something like this?

Yeah but get the Victor version not JVC. The JVC needs batteries where as the Victor also takes an AC adaptor.

 

[Needles]

Related question: I assume the Titanium I/O front bay drive is more or less useless with the HTHD? The headphone/mic jacks seem a little pointless, as the drive jack likely doesn't offer the amplification provided by the jack on the rear panel of the sound card. Also, since there's a dedicated jack for the headphones, separate from the I/O for the speakers, there's no need to crawl behind the tower and swap out cables between powered speakers and headphones, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ear8dmg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah but get the Victor version not JVC. The JVC needs batteries where as the Victor also takes an AC adaptor.

Thanks! I'll definitely look into it. The one I linked is the Victor, I think, according to the pic and the fact that they're pimping an AC adapter as a separate purchase. Confusing though, I keep seeing JVC-Victor and various combinations thereof ...

 

[somestranger26]

TL;DR - If an HDMI output is capable of transporting DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD, regardless of what bitrate the HDMI out supports, it is not removing any fidelity because it is not possible for it to resample the stream before output. Newer graphics cards such as the ATI HD5000 series have no bandwidth limitations on their HDMI output and can output TrueHD and DTS-HD MA at the full 18 and 24.5Mbps optional standards in the blu-ray spec, respectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif You edited you post...it is hard to answer when you keep changing what you're* saying ..anyway: Edit-> We are not talking about the same cards. Some GFX cards are supposed to be able to produce HDMI spec audio but they do not pass it from another source through S/Pdif.

I edited my post once to add the quote from ATI's site, two minutes after initially posting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for the other GFX cards people are talking about, the GFX card will allow input through S/Pdif but the soundcards S/pdif output cannot pass these high definition standards. S/Pdif normally is stereo output. You can get surround audio encoded but it is a very lossy compression Ala' Dolby DIgital Live or DTS-Connect. DolbyTrueHD and DTS-HD need more bandwidth then what is available through S/pdif. There is no hardware that can pass these standards over S/pdif...just is not possible. HDMI is the only technology that will allow these standard to be used as there is boat load of copy protection built right in and you also have the PAP to worry about.

I'm not talking about SPDIF, I'm talking about HDMI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, These GFX cards will integrate whatever audio is sent through the S/Pdif with video and send that over HDMI cable. While it is a HDMI cable and video is high definition the audio is not these newer high definition standards that are now avilable on many blu rays. At best you would be limited to 16/44.1 or 16/48...

YES IT IS, that is what DTS Master HD and Dolby TrueHD are. EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif As I said, we are not talking the same thing. You are confusing the ability of the newest GFX cards with what the older GFX cards can do.

Clearly you're not, since you neglect to address that only newer graphics cards that have the ability to output digital audio over their hdmi outputs even have HDMI to begin with. Recognize that HDMI has only become a standard within the last two years or so, so don't tell me that "older graphics cards" have HDMI and cannot output audio.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif HDMI is an advancment of the DVI technology. No problem, glad I could help.

Completely different standards, HDMI is not a replacement for DVI; DisplayPort is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well the main difference between the Forte and the HTHD is mainly the HDMI circuitry. This card also supports Dolby True HD and DTS-MA which the Forte 7.1 currently does not. HDMI itself is still very much a niche market on the PC, many have been using HDMI GFX for ahiwle but tru HDMI based audio is just starting to be available through this and one other card. New product are bsing rleased everyday so maybe something new will be released that also offers these standards. Personally, if I had to choose between the Forte and the HTHD 7.1..I would take the newer card. Even if you don't want to use the HDMI options you may want to later on down the road. Options and features are nice to have even if your not going to use them right now. If the HDMI aspects are not really somethign you think you will ever use, grab the Forte 7.1.

Let me say again, if you have HDMI output on your graphics card you probably have audio out support over that same HDMI since HDMI has only become prevalent in the past two years or so which is the same time that audio out over HDMI also became prevalent. You clearly don't know what you're talking about and should stop confusing people in this thread with all of your misinformation, trying to sound like you know what you're talking about by ranting on and on for "paragraphs."

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif With regards to what the new graphics card can do in terms of HD audio: This is the same one you quoted, Did you see the small 4 over the TrueHD? -It is hard to see because when you quote it, it changes to normal text. Right here: If we look down at the fine print, we see 4. Subject to digital rights management limitations; maximum supported audio stream bandwidth is 6.144 Mbps.

It doesn't matter what bitrate it is at, Dolby TrueHD is Dolby TrueHD. If it's outputted, it's outputted in its entirety. This is like telling me that the fidelity of FLAC is compromised if it has a lower bitrate. And while it says the max bandwidth for ONLY the TrueHD output and not the other formats is 6.144Mbps, the max bitrate of TrueHD at 18Mbps is also for carrying up to 18 discrete channels up to 24-bit, 192kHz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif Which is a fancy way of saying the card HDMI audio output is sample locked. The max bit rate for Dolby TrueHD is ~18 Mbps The max bit rate fo DTS-HD is ~24.5 Mbps So while these cards are technically offering these standards they are limiting the fidelity of your output.

TrueHD and DTS-HD are lossless, if it says it supports outputting them it supports outputting them in their full lossless glory. They do not magically take the audio from your sound card, resample it, and then reencode it into TrueHD or DTS-HD because no sound card supports that type of encoding and most certainly the $2 chips added to HDMI supporting graphics cards for audio output are not going to support them when something like an X-Fi doesn't.

If you want to go ahead and refute any of what I'm saying based off of your "oh my god, the 4000 series only outputs 6.144mbps max" then go ahead and look at the newer 5000 series which has no such limitation. I've made my points clear and will not argue with you anymore since it's not what the thread is about.

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Needles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks! According to the Auzentech website, the HTHD doesn't actually require any internal connections. It's all external. HDMI out from the GFX card (using an adaptor) to the HDMI in on the HTHD, all on the rear panels. Then HMDI out from the sound card to the television and analog I/O to the speakers or HDMI should I decide to snap up a receiver some day. Sounds like the way to go. I'll be covered through years of external audio upgrades. In the absence of a receiver, I suppose one could forgo the connection between the GFX and HTHD and connect the GFX directly to the television via HDMI or DVI and connect the analog I/O to the speakers, at least until one decides to send both audio and video to a receiver. Either way, the future potential is quite impressive.

I didn't mean to give the impression that you conenct everything up internally. This is not how it is done right now. There is an internal connection that is said to be for future GFX cards.

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ear8dmg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Rob - did you ever get this working with Alchemy? I tried two cards in one system and it was fine - except for legacy games where alchemy was required. DS3D-GX on the xonar worked but that didn't get EAX working on quite a few games.

Yes, I tested a few games with ALchemy and this setup.

 

[Needles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif I didn't mean to give the impression that you conenct everything up internally. This is not how it is done right now. There is an internal connection that is said to be for future GFX cards.

No worries. It has been my previous experience that GFX/sound cards are connected internally, I simply assumed the same of this generation. I've since done some research and have my facts straight on how the linking and output occurs. I see that the HTHD has headers that, in future, will be set to determine how the card receives video (via the back panel or directly though the PCI-e), dependent on future technology. At the moment, back panel HDMI is the only way to travel. Thanks again for all your help!

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif TL;DR - If an HDMI output is capable of transporting DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD, regardless of what bitrate the HDMI out supports, it is not removing any fidelity because it is not possible for it to resample the stream before output. Newer graphics cards such as the ATI HD5000 series have no bandwidth limitations on their HDMI output and can output TrueHD and DTS-HD MA at the full 18 and 24.5Mbps optional standards in the blu-ray spec, respectively.

You were not talking about the 5000 series.
It is fully possible for it to limit the standard. They are doing it right now telling peple they have true HDMI when they really have nothing more then S/pdif audio. Many GFX based solution have been doing that for awhile. The only way you would know the difference before you bought it, is to read the fine print or to knwo the difference.
The new 5000 series may allow full bandwidth audio..but acording to the specs the 4000 series is limited.
Consider, If TrueHD is maximum 25Mbps as I posted, then how can it be passing the proper information when it is limited to 6.4mbps max?
This is all the DRM crap that many peopel have been up in arms about. Limiting the audio because of fear of copying the full bit rate data.

If this is not something to worry about, why woudl they even mention it?
Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I edited my post once to add the quote from ATI's site, two minutes after initially posting it.

Well it is hard to reply when the statments changes.
Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not talking about SPDIF, I'm talking about HDMI.

I know exactly what your talking about, but your missing what others were talking about. Which is many current GFX cards allow for S/Pdif input for integration into the HDMI cable but in reality it is not true high definition audio.
Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif YES IT IS, that is what DTS Master HD and Dolby TrueHD are. EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Really so if a guy takes his S/Pdif output and connects it to his card and passes just plain old 16/44.1 or 16/48 audio to the GFX card to be passed to the HDMI cable that is DolbyTrueHD and DTS-MA? I think your the one that needs to educate yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Clearly you're not, since you neglect to address that only newer graphics cards that have the ability to output digital audio over their hdmi outputs even have HDMI to begin with. Recognize that HDMI has only become a standard within the last two years or so, so don't tell me that "older graphics cards" have HDMI and cannot output audio.

I was answering questions. I also responded to your also about the newer cards limiting the bandwidth according to their own specs.
I never told you "older graphics cards" have HDMI and cannot output audio."
read over the post once again. Where did I say that?
What I said, was these cards that allow for S/Pdif input will NOT pass DolbyTrueHD or DTS-MA. S/Pdif does not have the bandwidth and therer is currently no hardware that passes those standards over plain S/pdif...nothing.


Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Completely different standards, HDMI is not a replacement for DVI; DisplayPort is.

Where did I say it was a replacment? What I said is, it is an advancement. DVI is video only and HDMI is both audio and Video. This is why you can use a simple adapter to hook a DVI conenction to a HDMI display...etc. One of that main differences is the audio integration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let me say again, if you have HDMI output on your graphics card you probably have audio out support over that same HDMI since HDMI has only become prevalent in the past two years or so which is the same time that audio out over HDMI also became prevalent. You clearly don't know what you're talking about and should stop confusing people in this thread with all of your misinformation, trying to sound like you know what you're talking about by ranting on and on for "paragraphs."

Well of course you have audio, I never said you didn't what I said is you do not get full high definition audio that is avilable through HDMI with these S/pdif input cards.
I would say I know exactly what I am talking about. Perhaps your not reading it right.
Where is the misinformation? The only person ranting on for pages and pages is you...What am I responding to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It doesn't matter what bitrate it is at, Dolby TrueHD is Dolby TrueHD. If it's outputted, it's outputted in its entirety. This is like telling me that the fidelity of FLAC is compromised if it has a lower bitrate. And while it says the max bandwidth for ONLY the TrueHD output and not the other formats is 6.144Mbps, the max bitrate of TrueHD at 18Mbps is also for carrying up to 18 discrete channels up to 24-bit, 192kHz.

Sure, Bit rate is only part of the equation..but these standard go much higher then just 6.5Mbps....so they are bandwidth limited. You posted the information I just pointed out the fine print.
I guess you would need to ask ATI exactly what that fineprint entails, it may only pertain to one standard. I think it is for both but cannot be sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif TrueHD and DTS-HD are lossless, if it says it supports outputting them it supports outputting them in their full lossless glory. They do not magically take the audio from your sound card, resample it, and then reencode it into TrueHD or DTS-HD because no sound card supports that type of encoding and most certainly the $2 chips added to HDMI supporting graphics cards for audio output are not going to support them when something like an X-Fi doesn't.

..in their full lossless glory at 6.1mbps? according to the information:
4. Subject to digital rights management limitations; maximum supported audio stream bandwidth is 6.144 Mbps.
There is obviously a limitation put into place because of damn DRM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by somestranger26 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you want to go ahead and refute any of what I'm saying based off of your "oh my god, the 4000 series only outputs 6.144mbps max" then go ahead and look at the newer 5000 series which has no such limitation. I've made my points clear and will not argue with you anymore since it's not what the thread is about.

So, you obviously see that something is off right?
If the new cards do, that is great the more solutions the better. -you posted information regarding the 4000 series and prior to your post nobody was talking about those cards.
What was being discussed was GFX cards that allow normal S/Pdif input.

Can we get back to the HTHD7.1 now?
Also, there is no reason to turn this into a flame war. We can discuss the standards and ideas without taking offense or ruining the thread. We can discuss further through PM if you want.

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Needles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Related question: I assume the Titanium I/O front bay drive is more or less useless with the HTHD? The headphone/mic jacks seem a little pointless, as the drive jack likely doesn't offer the amplification provided by the jack on the rear panel of the sound card. Also, since there's a dedicated jack for the headphones, separate from the I/O for the speakers, there's no need to crawl behind the tower and swap out cables between powered speakers and headphones, right?

The drive is fully compatible with the HTHD7.1. I have not tested it so I cannot comment on the exact operation.

 

[Needles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif The drive is fully compatible with the HTHD7.1. I have not tested it so I cannot comment on the exact operation.

It seems like a neat and convenient piece of hardware, but if the headphone jack doesn't provide amplification I simply don't see the point of it in combo with a Forte or the HTHD ... BUT, according to at least one source I've run across on Google, the front jack DOES benefit from the amp. Still sounds a little fishy to me.

UNRELATED: Does anyone have anything to add to ear8dmg's suggestion of hooking up a Victor-JVC headphone adapter to the X-fi, thus adding Dolby Headphone to the mix? I'm speaking to him via PM, originally thinking it was a little off topic, but I wonder now if anyone else has anything to add? ... in the interest of getting the thread back on track. Will it effect the output of the X-fi negatively? Will it cancel out any effects (such as EAX and others)? What if CMSS-3D is activated simultaneously, for elevation filter and MacroFX?

 

[ROBSCIX]

I am not sure why you would need that external processor when then card has virtual surround over headphone using the CMSS3D routine. Unless you want this external processor for another standard such as DH.
If you connected this up to the HTHD or Forte, the cards would pass any of their effects through the headphone output or line out to this device.
Can't see it being a negative influence.
If this helps, when I was running a dual sound card system I could use EAX 1,2,3,4 or OpenAL through hardware and still have Dolby Headphone and there was no lost effects or anything like that.
I think that is basically the same idea.

 

[Needles]

Yeah, DH would be the big draw. I've always used CMSS-3D and it's tolerable ... but I'm not a huge fan. Fact is, I'd use the headphone adapter for other purposes, so I wouldn't simply be dropping $120 CDN on Dolby Headphone for my PC gaming. I watch a lot of DVDs on the road. Having the adapter to add 5.1 to the mix would be a welcome addition.

My big question would be the simultaneous use of CMSS-3D and Dolby Headphone. I wonder what the result of that would be ...? Ear8dmg mentioned he continues to benefit from elevation and MacroFX, both aspects of CMSS-3D, so I can only assume he uses both CMSS and DH at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ear8dmg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well - I much prefer Dolby Headphone to CMSS3D headphone - So I use and X-Fi with external Dolby Headphone processor. Best of both worlds. All the X-Fi positioning (elevation, MacroFX etc) and effects (EAX) with the added spatial cues that you get on Xonar.