dw6928
Headphoneus Supremus
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You know I never thought about the warranty.
Fresh AKG K701 sounds congested
- Thread starter Balisarda
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spinali
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Quote:
From a practical standpoint, as advice to a new K701 user, it's not controversial to suggest that they "break in" their headphones for 300 hours (or so - that number comes from AKG USA). There's no harm in "breaking in" headphones if you don't think break-in exists, and it might even be beneficial in ways one may find surprising.
ASR documented marked and surprising differences in a new and "broken in" pair. The fact that so, so many others noted congruent results with these headphones (several dozens on these threads alone) suggests new-user patience may be a good virtue to cultivate.
Certainly don't give up on them after an hour!
| But I'm not sure if we should continue a debate with speaker burn-in. There's enough ongoing debates with headphone burn-in here |
From a practical standpoint, as advice to a new K701 user, it's not controversial to suggest that they "break in" their headphones for 300 hours (or so - that number comes from AKG USA). There's no harm in "breaking in" headphones if you don't think break-in exists, and it might even be beneficial in ways one may find surprising.
ASR documented marked and surprising differences in a new and "broken in" pair. The fact that so, so many others noted congruent results with these headphones (several dozens on these threads alone) suggests new-user patience may be a good virtue to cultivate.
Certainly don't give up on them after an hour!
Davesrose
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Quote:
I haven't spent a sizable amount of time with the k701.....but I have the k501. When I initially complained of the huge soundstage and weak bass, I was told to allow at least 400 hours of burn in. Well listening and burning in for weeks on end didn't do anything to them. Getting the Single Power SLAM was the biggest difference. Their lower mids are still too recessed though.....but going by some believers here, maybe I should give them 80 thousand hours of burn in. Then their sonic characteristics will miraculously change
| Originally Posted by spinali /img/forum/go_quote.gif Certainly don't give up on them after an hour! |
I haven't spent a sizable amount of time with the k701.....but I have the k501. When I initially complained of the huge soundstage and weak bass, I was told to allow at least 400 hours of burn in. Well listening and burning in for weeks on end didn't do anything to them. Getting the Single Power SLAM was the biggest difference. Their lower mids are still too recessed though.....but going by some believers here, maybe I should give them 80 thousand hours of burn in. Then their sonic characteristics will miraculously change
mofonyx
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Quote:
It may be the "risk versus benefits" thing if you're going for recabling.
I think the "if it ain't broke don't fit it" comes into play here, very much!
There isn't an alternative though, if you're wanting a balanced set up
| Originally Posted by dw6928 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You know I never thought about the warranty. |
It may be the "risk versus benefits" thing if you're going for recabling.
I think the "if it ain't broke don't fit it" comes into play here, very much!
There isn't an alternative though, if you're wanting a balanced set up
JaZZ
Headphoneus Supremus
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...correct -- in a narrower sense it's not the same. However, there's no fundamental difference which would contradict a similar behavior. In a wider sense headphone drivers are in fact mini-speakers.
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As an (ex-)(bass-)guitarist I can confirm you that the number and intensity of picks has an influence on the tendency to go out of pitch. And so has the play time. BTW, do you play tennis per chance?
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Maybe people are influenced by the corresponding reports on Head-Fi? But of course 300 or 400 hours is no magic number, just the period after which the sound has stabilized according to people's perception and experience -- in the case of the K 701. I remember that the HD 650 was said to need about 150 hours, and this corresponds to my own experience.
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Probably they do. But after a certain period the change decelerates more and more and doesn't have a sonic effect anymore. Like a pair of shoes that begins to get comfortable and doesn't change its shape much anymore from there on.
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It may not be necessary to remember the sonic details. It may be enough to experience a sonic characteristic that's closer to your personal ideal. In other words, a quality and quantity of sonic flaws easier to digest than in initial state. That said, I absolutely don't deny the meaning of «getting familiar» with a sonic characteristic. But then again, this would imply some sort of longer-term sonic memory as well.
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Maybe replacing just one driver doesn't make enough of a difference? Or different headphones have different break-in requirements? Or different people have different (specific) sensitivities?
These days I'm comparing my new HD 650 to my older pair. Out of the box, the difference was like night and day. The new pair sounded extremely bass-heavy to a degree I couldn't accept if it was a definitive trait. Not too surprisingly it turned out that most of the bass emphasis was due to the high clamping pressure of the new headphone. Sennheiser apparently shapes the headband in a way that takes care of a future ware-in process. I don't consider this a design flaw.
Constant equalizing of the pressure by stretching the headband and pulling the earpieces away from my ears reveiled some minor, but still existing sonic differences, but under these circumstances it was hard to clearly identify them. But now that the headband is decently broken in, there are definitely some (not so minor) sonic differences left. The new pair sounds brighter, sleeker, colder, a bit more sterile and also a bit clearer, neither clearly inferior nor superior as a whole, but definitely not exactly the same. However, I still slightly prefer the wamer, more organic characteristic of the older pair.
There's also the real possibility that the two will never sound identical due to subtle design deviations. The only deviation I can detect is the different color of the fabric covering the baffle around the membrane. After all, the loosening of the headband alone already has a clear sonic impact and represents a clearly audible and important break-in effect.
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Yes. The measurements a few days later showed a fall-back at about 50% towards the initial values. I'm sure it will take much less than the previously applied 15 hours to get them «back» to the achieved parameters, though. Moreover a pause of several days doesn't represent the «normal» break-in procedure. But the same applies to the extreme excursion which the drivers had to suffer from to accelerate the process, so final conclusions about the effective and precise break-in behavior can't be drawn anyway. The examples just served to show that vibration (= the normal mechanical stress speaker drivers have to go through during their career) has indeed a measurable impact. BTW, I have measured (other) speaker drivers weeks and months after dedicated break-in, and they have preserved the resulting lower resonance frequencies (close to the nominal values according to the manufacturer).
Quote:
The K 501 is a fine headphone, and I really liked its strengths, but I wasn't able to ignore its biggest weakness: the thin bass -- which wasn't curable, not even with excessive break-in.
It may still be open for debate if headphones really physically break in, as speakers do without a doubt -- the more so as the measuring differences don't automatically mean audible differences. After all it's rather ignorant to consider (headphone) break-in phenomena unlikely or impossible. In my experience the K 701 has made considerable progress since I first listened to it.
Even if you still don't believe in physical break-in: I believe there are so many people who report initial dissatisfaction and final love that the recommendation to have patience and give this headphone more time to develop (understood as to give yourself more time to adapt) is absolutely justified.
.
| Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif A headphone driver is not the same as a speaker driver... |
...correct -- in a narrower sense it's not the same. However, there's no fundamental difference which would contradict a similar behavior. In a wider sense headphone drivers are in fact mini-speakers.
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...and neither are the same as a guitar string. 
|
As an (ex-)(bass-)guitarist I can confirm you that the number and intensity of picks has an influence on the tendency to go out of pitch. And so has the play time. BTW, do you play tennis per chance?
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| To turn it around....why is 300 to 400 hours a magic number for burn-in then?? |
Maybe people are influenced by the corresponding reports on Head-Fi? But of course 300 or 400 hours is no magic number, just the period after which the sound has stabilized according to people's perception and experience -- in the case of the K 701. I remember that the HD 650 was said to need about 150 hours, and this corresponds to my own experience.
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| Using this logic: if headphone diaphragms are really that volatile, then wouldn't they keep on changing infinitely? |
Probably they do. But after a certain period the change decelerates more and more and doesn't have a sonic effect anymore. Like a pair of shoes that begins to get comfortable and doesn't change its shape much anymore from there on.
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| If it gets to be longer than a day, then I can't see how you can remember the finite details of the sonic characteristics of a fresh driver. |
It may not be necessary to remember the sonic details. It may be enough to experience a sonic characteristic that's closer to your personal ideal. In other words, a quality and quantity of sonic flaws easier to digest than in initial state. That said, I absolutely don't deny the meaning of «getting familiar» with a sonic characteristic. But then again, this would imply some sort of longer-term sonic memory as well.
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| I do believe that a headphone never completely changes its sonic character. I replaced my 8 year old HD580 drivers not too long ago: when I first popped in one of the new drivers, I compared it with an 8 year old driver. Guess what? They sounded identical. My mood and perceptions were the same since I was listening to new and old simultaneously. |
Maybe replacing just one driver doesn't make enough of a difference? Or different headphones have different break-in requirements? Or different people have different (specific) sensitivities?
These days I'm comparing my new HD 650 to my older pair. Out of the box, the difference was like night and day. The new pair sounded extremely bass-heavy to a degree I couldn't accept if it was a definitive trait. Not too surprisingly it turned out that most of the bass emphasis was due to the high clamping pressure of the new headphone. Sennheiser apparently shapes the headband in a way that takes care of a future ware-in process. I don't consider this a design flaw.
Constant equalizing of the pressure by stretching the headband and pulling the earpieces away from my ears reveiled some minor, but still existing sonic differences, but under these circumstances it was hard to clearly identify them. But now that the headband is decently broken in, there are definitely some (not so minor) sonic differences left. The new pair sounds brighter, sleeker, colder, a bit more sterile and also a bit clearer, neither clearly inferior nor superior as a whole, but definitely not exactly the same. However, I still slightly prefer the wamer, more organic characteristic of the older pair.
There's also the real possibility that the two will never sound identical due to subtle design deviations. The only deviation I can detect is the different color of the fabric covering the baffle around the membrane. After all, the loosening of the headband alone already has a clear sonic impact and represents a clearly audible and important break-in effect.
Quote:
| Also, your link for your speaker measurements seem inconclusive. A: your main stance is that it takes well over 25 hours to get beneficial burn-in. B: did you measure the speakers again after leaving them off for over a day (to make sure that they don't return to an "initial state")? |
Yes. The measurements a few days later showed a fall-back at about 50% towards the initial values. I'm sure it will take much less than the previously applied 15 hours to get them «back» to the achieved parameters, though. Moreover a pause of several days doesn't represent the «normal» break-in procedure. But the same applies to the extreme excursion which the drivers had to suffer from to accelerate the process, so final conclusions about the effective and precise break-in behavior can't be drawn anyway. The examples just served to show that vibration (= the normal mechanical stress speaker drivers have to go through during their career) has indeed a measurable impact. BTW, I have measured (other) speaker drivers weeks and months after dedicated break-in, and they have preserved the resulting lower resonance frequencies (close to the nominal values according to the manufacturer).
Quote:
| I haven't spent a sizable amount of time with the k701.....but I have the k501. When I initially complained of the huge soundstage and weak bass, I was told to allow at least 400 hours of burn in. Well listening and burning in for weeks on end didn't do anything to them. |
The K 501 is a fine headphone, and I really liked its strengths, but I wasn't able to ignore its biggest weakness: the thin bass -- which wasn't curable, not even with excessive break-in.
It may still be open for debate if headphones really physically break in, as speakers do without a doubt -- the more so as the measuring differences don't automatically mean audible differences. After all it's rather ignorant to consider (headphone) break-in phenomena unlikely or impossible. In my experience the K 701 has made considerable progress since I first listened to it.
Even if you still don't believe in physical break-in: I believe there are so many people who report initial dissatisfaction and final love that the recommendation to have patience and give this headphone more time to develop (understood as to give yourself more time to adapt) is absolutely justified.
.
*645-k701
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F. me JazZ...; )
Davesrose
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Quote:
As a current classical guitarist, the effect of intensity and number of plucks is very miniscule for changing the tuning of an instrument. I've never had a string start losing its pitch during one set. I've had my guitar stay in tune for weeks if it was in the same environment, no matter how many hours I'd practice on it.
Quote:
You're right, I still don't believe in much physical break-in (my experience with my HD580's driver exchange was proof positive for me). I have a musical ear, so I think my ears are sensitive enough. So there's not much point responding to the other points, since we'll just revisit a road that has been travelled on this site and well worn.....well since the begining of known time (or at least when this site was formed)
I will give you that one's perceptions can change and that a person could get used to a new headphone. But one of my points was that a headphone's house sound doesn't drastically change (whether burn-in exists or not). I believe you can form a quick impression of a headphone to know whether it's a house sound for you. Generally, burn-in works for someone if they're overall impressed with the headphone....but are used to something that only marginally has more bass or is less shrill. After 20 or 500 hours, a DT770 is not suddenly going to change to a SR325 in sonic characteristics!!
*edit*
OK, there is one point I do have to respond to....as an official burn-in skeptic
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You know the k501 was the second headphone I bought after joining this site (the first one was the HD595 which I burned in and noticed a change after 25 hours). So I followed all burn-in instructions again for the k501.....and never did the sound change
So my opinions are just as valid and observed as every other Head-Fier. Since it's a phenomena that may be either physical or mental, there's going to be varying experiences. And no doubt, there will always be a burn-in camp and a non burn-in camp!
I'm more in the non-burn in side, with the exception of the HD595 of being the only headphone where there seemed to have been a driver settling.
| Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif As an (ex-)bass-)guitarrist I can confirm you that the number and intensity of picks has an influence on the tendency to go out of pitch. And so has the play time. |
As a current classical guitarist, the effect of intensity and number of plucks is very miniscule for changing the tuning of an instrument. I've never had a string start losing its pitch during one set. I've had my guitar stay in tune for weeks if it was in the same environment, no matter how many hours I'd practice on it.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Even if you still don't believe in physical break-in: I believe there are so many people who report initial dissatisfaction and final love that the recommendation to have patience and give this headphone more time to develop (understood as to give yourself more time to adapt) is absolutely justified. . |
You're right, I still don't believe in much physical break-in (my experience with my HD580's driver exchange was proof positive for me). I have a musical ear, so I think my ears are sensitive enough. So there's not much point responding to the other points, since we'll just revisit a road that has been travelled on this site and well worn.....well since the begining of known time (or at least when this site was formed)
*edit*
OK, there is one point I do have to respond to....as an official burn-in skeptic
Quote:
| After all it's rather ignorant to consider (headphone) break-in phenomena unlikely or impossible. |
You know the k501 was the second headphone I bought after joining this site (the first one was the HD595 which I burned in and noticed a change after 25 hours). So I followed all burn-in instructions again for the k501.....and never did the sound change
JaZZ
Headphoneus Supremus
I'm just listening to Gustav Holst's «Venus». The violins sound wonderfully warm and organic through my old pair, while uglily shrill and artificial through my new pair of HD 650...
.
.
Davesrose
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Is that Van Karajan's Holst? I like his CD better then the SACD of Bernstein's Holst that I also have. But a real symphonic test is Gyorgy Ligeti or Verdi's Requiem: they're extremely dynamic and can make me jump out of my seat
But I thought it was the new HD650 that was supposed to be warm and "extremely bass-heavy"?
Maybe cushions do settle down after a bit to alter the sound of a headphone: but there is still no proof that a headphone driver drastically changes over time. I still do have faith in the results I got with putting a new HD580 driver in the old right hand housing: sounded exactly the same as the old driver in the old left hand housing. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue
| Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm just listening to Gustav Holst's «Venus». The violins sound wonderfully warm and organic through my old pair, while uglily shrill and artificial through my new pair of HD 650...
. |
Is that Van Karajan's Holst? I like his CD better then the SACD of Bernstein's Holst that I also have. But a real symphonic test is Gyorgy Ligeti or Verdi's Requiem: they're extremely dynamic and can make me jump out of my seat
But I thought it was the new HD650 that was supposed to be warm and "extremely bass-heavy"?
JaZZ
Headphoneus Supremus
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I can't tell -- the CD was borrowed from my son and ripped to MP3. The recording is from 1970. Actually I always wanted to buy a new version. I have several LP versions, though, which I don't listen to anymore.
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It is recording dependent. With some recordings the new pair sounds equally good or even slightly better thanks to its more sparkling overtones. But that's not good for string orchestras. I would be glad about the increased treble if it just became more organic. I'm optimistic.
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No, we don't disagree -- since our experiences are with different headphones. They're just that: different experiences.
.
| Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is that Van Karajan's Holst? I like his CD better then the SACD of Bernstein's Holst that I also have. |
I can't tell -- the CD was borrowed from my son and ripped to MP3. The recording is from 1970. Actually I always wanted to buy a new version. I have several LP versions, though, which I don't listen to anymore.
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| But I thought it was the new HD650 that was supposed to be warm and "extremely bass-heavy"?
|
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| Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...now that the headband is decently broken in, there are definitely some (not so minor) sonic differences left. The new pair sounds brighter, sleeker, colder, a bit more sterile and also a bit clearer, neither clearly inferior nor superior as a whole, but definitely not exactly the same. However, I still slightly prefer the wamer, more organic characteristic of the older pair. |
It is recording dependent. With some recordings the new pair sounds equally good or even slightly better thanks to its more sparkling overtones. But that's not good for string orchestras. I would be glad about the increased treble if it just became more organic. I'm optimistic.
Quote:
| Maybe cushions do settle down after a bit to alter the sound of a headphone: but there is still no proof that a headphone driver drastically changes over time. I still do have faith in the results I got with putting a new HD580 driver in the old right hand housing: sounded exactly the same as the old driver in the old left hand housing. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue
|
No, we don't disagree -- since our experiences are with different headphones. They're just that: different experiences.
.
skeeder
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The K701's need a good burn in...mine are right now going though the wacko bass job.
Patrickhat2001
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Although there has been four pages of discussion concerning it I don't think this is a question about burn-in, I think it is more one of design. Simply put the HD650 is a more open headphone than the K701. Don't believe me hold one of the a phones of a HD580/600/650 up to a light source with the pad facing you. See that, you can see through it. Now do the same thing with a K701. You probably can't see anything through it can you (sometimes I can see just a spec of light coming through directly in the center)? They are both open headphones but the HD650 is simply more open than the K701--even a cursory glace at the driver housing for headphone makes that pretty obvious. And since the general rule of thumb is the more open the design the less congested the sound this seems like a pretty good explanation for what you are hearing.
Davesrose
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Quote:
Could be the Bernstein recording: was made in 1973. Van Karajan's is the most dynamic I've heard....I haven't heard Telarc's though. Notice they have an Atlanta Symphony one. Other Telarcs I've gotten have been very well recorded/ mastered.....but don't know anything about the performance.
| Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't tell -- the CD was borrowed from my son and ripped to MP3. The recording is from 1970. Actually I always wanted to buy a new version. I have several LP versions, though, which I don't listen to anymore. |
Could be the Bernstein recording: was made in 1973. Van Karajan's is the most dynamic I've heard....I haven't heard Telarc's though. Notice they have an Atlanta Symphony one. Other Telarcs I've gotten have been very well recorded/ mastered.....but don't know anything about the performance.
cotdt
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it's not just burn in. it's also the amp that is used. a high end amp is needed.
Arainach
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Quote:
I've had a pair of HD600 and HD701 sitting out next to each other. Each connected to the same source (different amps), with the volume adjusted so that on my head they sounded at the identical level, and I'd say the K701 were leaking 2-3 times as much sound as the HD600 (as measured by putting them around a pillow and turning one amp off at a time). THAT'S my measure of openness, and the K701 were much more open than the HD600. They were even more open than my RS-1, which shocked me.
| Originally Posted by Patrickhat2001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Although there has been four pages of discussion concerning it I don't think this is a question about burn-in, I think it is more one of design. Simply put the HD650 is a more open headphone than the K701. Don't believe me hold one of the a phones of a HD580/600/650 up to a light source with the pad facing you. See that, you can see through it. Now do the same thing with a K701. You probably can't see anything through it can you (sometimes I can see just a spec of light coming through directly in the center)? They are both open headphones but the HD650 is simply more open than the K701--even a cursory glace at the driver housing for headphone makes that pretty obvious. And since the general rule of thumb is the more open the design the less congested the sound this seems like a pretty good explanation for what you are hearing. |
I've had a pair of HD600 and HD701 sitting out next to each other. Each connected to the same source (different amps), with the volume adjusted so that on my head they sounded at the identical level, and I'd say the K701 were leaking 2-3 times as much sound as the HD600 (as measured by putting them around a pillow and turning one amp off at a time). THAT'S my measure of openness, and the K701 were much more open than the HD600. They were even more open than my RS-1, which shocked me.
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