[BloodSugar00]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of the albums you have, Burnt Weany Sandwich is the closest to the early Mothers. The versions I have on both LP and CD aren't the highest fidelity. I keep looking at the MFSL release of Your Only In It For The Money. Two more to consider if you want to stick to the same era that you've started with are Roxy & Elsewhere and You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore, Vol. 2 The Helsinki Concert. Both are recordings from the 74 tour. My younger brother actually followed a tour one year and say him 22 times just on that tour. The great thing about Zappa concerts is that every one was different. He didn't have a set play list that he played every show like some bands do. He also did a lot of unreleased material in his concerts. The 2 albums recommended above are great examples. Over half of the music on them is only on them and some of the music was released on later albums.

Cool, thanks, I'll bear them in mind for later (atm I've spent myself to the limit on audio gear and/or CDs! and I have plenty of Zappa material to sink my teeth into, also).

Oh, if I can pick your brain, what is the Zappa material like that has Steve Vai on guitar? Recently, picked up a few of his albums you see- still to listen to them (bought a wealth of new music)- and my curiousity was tickled that he actually transcribed for Frank and then became an ever increasingly active and influencial figure in his band(s) and recordings! Frank, himself, would appear musically literate and very adept but to have another guitarist transcribe his material suggest he wasn't and, despite the complex and/or progressive arrangements, across numerous different genres, styles and approaches, he came up with on a consistent basis, that were very challenging, musically, and intelligently creative, that he actually performed alot of this by feel! I am totally naieve here as I have next to no knowledge ot grasp of reading and/or understanding music and it's theory and applicance- though I very much intend to learn it at some point and have an interest in it!- but I'm spontificating that maybe, he was reasoably musically literate but that went further iof this platform by feel and instinct and curiosity, extrapolated by feel, and, therefore, disdn't really quite understand, musically, what he come up with? That and/or his compositions and arrangements were very challanging and complex and too much for hime to be able to transcribe? Or, maybe, havin Vai offer to do it was a task less for him and he simply welcomed it, along with Vai's talent and creativity on the guitar (from a song/composition and/or producer standpoint, that was, of course, the overseeing role he kept on his recordings)? Some, a combination of this or none, I'm interested why an apparently well schooled musical brain like Zappa would enlist someone else to transcribe his music and arrangements!

 

[scompton]

I think a lot of composers have others transcribe their music because it frees them up for more creative processes. But I'm really in the same boat as you there, just guessing.

Warren Cuccurullo got his gig with Zappa by memorizing every guitar line on Zappa's albums when he was a teen.

There's an interesting youtube video of Vai talking about his audition with Zappa.

+ YouTube Video​

ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

As far as what albums Vai plays on, allmusic ((( Steve Vai > Credits ))) is your friend. It's more than I realized. Unfortunately, Zappa's 80s albums are very uneven. Them or Us or You Are What You Is are two of the better ones. Maybe some of the YCDTOSA albums, but I don't own all of them so I don't know. I'm surprised he was on Tinseltown Rebellion because I saw 2 shows on that tour and Vai wasn't in the band. Personally, I don't think any of the music from the 80s is up to the quality of the 70s.

 

[BloodSugar00]

Thanks for a great response!

The video of Vai speaking of his audition you embedded into your post, is very curious and funny! Since Jimi Hendrix I always look for how big the hands and/or fingers are of a virtuosic and highly, technically advanced guitarist, and, usually they are bigger than the norm (obviously, an advantage, making the instruement easier to play and extending the physical playing realms of possibility); Vai's don't buck that trend! I realise that Zappa audition was quirky and, though unsure, teetering more towards the leadin of one on, but do you reckon, your anecdote regarding Warren Cuccurullo supporting, that Zappa looked for ppl who were gona follow his direction to the tee? Servants to his creative visions etc? Anwsering my own question(s) really, but I suppose that's what Zappa did throughout his career; he ran his projects hiring ppl fully prepared to serve a purpose within Frank's creative process. Working for his cause and creative goals.

Yeah, Vai did do quite a bit of work with Zappa. I think, to start out with, mainly transcribing, as aforementioned earlier, and over-dubs on recordiings like Tinseltown Rebellion, Joe's Garage Act III and Shut Up and Play Your Guitar. I don't think he was a fully-fledged band member- including playing live- until after these recordings.

 

[scompton]

Zappa had a reputation for ruling his band with an iron fist. But I also think he required creativity as evidenced by what Vai's audition was like. The band needed to be able to change a song on the fly, for instance, do a reggae version. He also frequently conducted jams by the band in concert.

I know what you mean about big hands and I think it applies to players of any fingered instrument, except maybe not piccolo. I have large hands and short, stubby fingers. Every time I've picked up a guitar, I have problems reaching the top string. I recently bought a ukulele and I'm learning to play it. One thing I've learned is that it would be hard to play with fat fingers. When I think about it, most great guitarists have long skinny hands.

 

[VicAjax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloodSugar00 /img/forum/go_quote.gif N.B.// After my purchase of Over-nite Sensation, I noticed on Play.com that they had a different version up for sale- much more expensive like, as apparently it's limited and, of course, would be an import-, a Japanese print, that had an extra track (slotted in as the first track, ahead of Camarillo Brillo) called 'Over-nite Sensation'! Anyone got this version of the album and/or heard this track? (I know that the Japanese versions of a lot of records have bonus tracks but can anyone shed any light on this track please and, why, as what would've been the title track, it may of been excluded off the standard (US and/or UK) release?)

i have the (a?) Japanese import of Over-Nite Sensation, and it has the original track listing. the sound quality is far better than my original CD, which was a double-album paired with Apostrophe that was released back in the late 80s. the great thing about the import is that it's designed as a miniature mock-up of the original LP sleeve... even the CD looks like a little vinyl platter.

Quote:

N.B.2// Also, what are ppl's thoughts and feelings on the first incarnation of the Mothers Of Invention's material; the records before Zappa disbanded them (ie. not Weasels Ripped My Flesh or Burnt Weeny Sandwich; those four before Uncle Meat)?

the Mothers were brilliant, but it's a very different sound from what you've been listening to. worth getting, especially We're Only In It For the Money, Absolutely Free and Freak Out!.

I do like Lumpy Gravy for its historical context, since it was his first compositional/orchestral effort. But it's still very much an edit-room kaleidoscope like the other early albums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloodSugar00 /img/forum/go_quote.gif and my curiousity was tickled that he actually transcribed for Frank and then became an ever increasingly active and influencial figure in his band(s) and recordings! Frank, himself, would appear musically literate and very adept but to have another guitarist transcribe his material suggest he wasn't and, despite the complex and/or progressive arrangements, across numerous different genres, styles and approaches, he came up with on a consistent basis, that were very challenging, musically, and intelligently creative, that he actually performed alot of this by feel! I am totally naieve here as I have next to no knowledge ot grasp of reading and/or understanding music and it's theory and applicance- though I very much intend to learn it at some point and have an interest in it!- but I'm spontificating that maybe, he was reasoably musically literate but that went further iof this platform by feel and instinct and curiosity, extrapolated by feel, and, therefore, disdn't really quite understand, musically, what he come up with? That and/or his compositions and arrangements were very challanging and complex and too much for hime to be able to transcribe? Or, maybe, havin Vai offer to do it was a task less for him and he simply welcomed it, along with Vai's talent and creativity on the guitar (from a song/composition and/or producer standpoint, that was, of course, the overseeing role he kept on his recordings)? Some, a combination of this or none, I'm interested why an apparently well schooled musical brain like Zappa would enlist someone else to transcribe his music and arrangements!

Zappa was very academic and structured about his composition. It was very much based on an encyclopedic knowledge and understanding of music and musical composition. His music constantly referenced other modern classical composers (Stravinsky, Varese) as well as jazz composers (Eric Dolphy).

He was a workaholic, spending weeks at a time in his studio, and his compositional process was based around what he called conceptual continuity and "project/object." basically, all of his music cross-references and back-references itself and progresses from a set of singular concepts. simple objects you'll hear cropping up throughout his discography are poodles, mudsharks, sofas, leather, poop, etc. they're sort of signposts, trinkets he leaves for us mere mortals along the way.

i think Vai's transcriptions services were reserved mostly for the insane improvised guitar solos and paperwork he didn't want to deal with himself.

btw, i'm listing to Läther as we speak.

 

[ncmando]

I am a big fan of the Grand Wazoo my self. Say hello to Cletus for me!

I feel very fortunate to have seen Frank live twice. If you like rock guitar at all, you would have loved him live, even if you can't stand the albums.

This era gives you a taste of what he was like...

 

[scompton]

His concerts could be mixed. I grew up in Baltimore and I think he felt a little disdain for the city. Quite a few of his Baltimore area concerts were lacking in instrumentals and heavy on the novelty songs. Fortunately, a lot of the novelty songs have great music.

The SQ on my copy of Grand Wazoo leaves a lot to be desired. It's probably the first CD release from the 80s. Does anyone know of a version with good sound?

 

[VicAjax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif The SQ on my copy of Grand Wazoo leaves a lot to be desired. It's probably the first CD release from the 80s. Does anyone know of a version with good sound?

i think most of the 80s CD releases were pretty lousy. i replaced my GW with the newer standard release, available now, as well as a bunch of other Zappa albums, and the difference is pretty significant. i think it was one of the side-effects of Zappa being an early-adopter of digital technology that wasn't ready for prime time.

i don't know if there are other, better sounding releases available... i'm pretty satisfied with the one i have. but if the Japanese import is still available, i'd recommend trying that. the SQ on my Japanese Over-Nite Sensation is great.

 

[cardude]

I'm a big fan of Zappa, and have found a lot of information in this thread. Thanks to everyone, and I hope more contribute to it. I think Frank was a musical genius and way ahead of his time!

As for favorite discs, mine are Joe's Garage, Sheik Yerbouti, Apostophe, Overnite Sensation and Zoot Allures. I also have come to appreciate the CD "Just Another Band From LA". The first song is a live tune called Billy The Mountain, it runs about 24 minutes. When I listen, it's hard to fathom that they did this live on stage. He always had the most talented musicians playing with him.

On another note, I had the chance to see the Zappa Plays Zappa tour. Man, that was incredible! Dweezil not only has the talent, but he has put together an incredibly tight band. They blew me away, even my wife loved the show. I highly recommend any fan of Frank to see this show if you have the chance.

 

[BloodSugar00]

Heres a link to that the product page for that Japanese print of Over-nite Sensation I described earlier in the thread:

Play.com (UK) : Frank Zappa - Over-Nite Sensation (Japanese Import) (Limited) : CD - Free Delivery

If I had the money to burn I'd consider gettin it (I'd do some preliminary enquiries first, though, and make sure that bonus track is definately on the print I'd be buying and the dealer is genuine and reliable etc!). However, anyone else with a spot of cash burning a hole in their pocket, may wana go for it- sure it's available from oter sources, ebay or other, more standard retailers- so thought I'd post it up! I am very curious about that apparent extra track, Over-nite sensation (what would, if included on the regular release, of been the title track)!

N.B.// I'm obviously relatively new and fresh to Zappa and his discography, but I'm further curious as to whether the extra track that is supposedly on this print of this record, was/is actually released elsewhere (on another album or compliation, when Zappa was alive or posthumous, or even, say, a live track never recorded formally in the studio)?

VicAjax, thanks your input and response to my various raised inquiries and for spreading some more intersting background info and anecdotes and/or your own anticpations, estimations etc on Zappa and/or his material etc!
The Japanese version of Over-nite Sensation you have sounds like a great purchase, musically, and as a complete (physical) item, also! Can you possibly describe how this version's SQ is superior to other, prior versions you've owned and/or listened to? Is it a clarity/reduced distorton thing and/or does the recording have a wider dynamic range, for example? I'd appreciate qualification of your statement, if you don't mind, for my own general interest, really!

Interesting overview of your thoughts on the early Mothers Of Invention albums; I guessed they'd be different in vibe and approach etc, but it's always nice to have it qualified! Also, on Lumpy Gravy- I did, honestly, pick that up cos it was both in stock, ie no wait for stock to come in, and cheap, along with Chunga's Revenge. 'Edit-room kaliedoscope' is great phrase and is very much how I'd imagine/forecast it to play out, without having listened to it!

Thanks also for your insight into Zappa's music credentials, technical and theoretical proficiency and comprehension of knowledge and understanding, and his working process! Highly intersting stuff, and, very much how I first anticipated him to be (that Vai thing just sparked in my head the possibility of otherwise). I think your rationale and logical, educated guess on why Zappa utilised Steve Vai as a transcriber is now, if not before, my thoughts on that- ie I agree it makes sense Zappa would welcome Vai undertaking the task of transcription to free up his workload and unburden somewhat for his creative goals, and, that it was likely, most applicable to live improvisations and the such.

That leads me back to the discussion with Scompton regarding Zappa's ruling of his bands/team of muscianians! You make good points and I'd agree with you, also. His muscians had to be diverse and lucid and technicall astue and accomplished to change things up and/or follow Zappa's head, within his creative process. Also, if they Zappa frequently 'conducted' improvisational processes live, as you say, then they had that freedom of self-expression in a live outlet, at least. I think, though, predominantly, with most of the albums of Zappa's were he was the producer, then I think, as far as delinierating the creative process, the ideas and directions etc, I'm guessin he dictated most of this ie they were his compositions and arrangements and not, in the main, born out of collaborative input. That was the point I was trying to make. Therefore, the musicians he hired would behave as session recruitments, pawns fulfilling roles precribed by him in his crative process and picture.

Finally, cardude, thanks for your input! I echo your sentiments that I hope this thread sustains itself and recieves more attention and attracts a wider audience- God knows theres much to discuss on this man and his wealth of artwork!

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardude /img/forum/go_quote.gif On another note, I had the chance to see the Zappa Plays Zappa tour. Man, that was incredible! Dweezil not only has the talent, but he has put together an incredibly tight band. They blew me away, even my wife loved the show. I highly recommend any fan of Frank to see this show if you have the chance.

The band is all ex-Zappa band members so they should be good. I'd like to see a show, but the last tour was $150 a ticket. That's just too much.

 

[TwoFiveOne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif The band is all ex-Zappa band members so they should be good. I'd like to see a show, but the last tour was $150 a ticket. That's just too much.

ZPZ has a really good DVD out... Amazon/buy or Netflix/rent...

Tell me you love me....
Tell me you love me....
Girrrl!!
Girrrl!!

 

[DarkAngel]

All this Zappa talked has rekindled long lost memories of my youth in the 1970s........I vaguely remember owning several Zappa albums and 8 track tapes, but they have been lost over long time period.

Checking into the Zappa catalog I now see the songs I fondly remember were from 1st three albums........so I put order in for this collection:
Threesome No. 1

Released in 2002 collects 1st three albums together in a 3CD package, reduced price plus saves money shipping:
-freak out
-absolutely free
-only in it for the money

Look forward to revisiting these long lost memories, hoping original artwork in there somewhere

 

[fzman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif The band is all ex-Zappa band members so they should be good. I'd like to see a show, but the last tour was $150 a ticket. That's just too much.

that is absolutely wrong!!!! dweezil put together a band of "unknown" young musicians who could actually play zappa's music-- no small feat! he often has a guest alumn or two. i;ve seen the first two tours 1. napoleon murphy brock, steve vai, terry bozzio, and the second one with ray white. there's also a dvd of the first tour available. i am surprised nobody has mentioned zappa.com as a great resource, and to put the money in the zappa family's hands.......

i may also buck the trend a bit here, as i tend to prefer the later zappa to the early original stuff. absolutely free, freak out are great, but the stuff just befofe he died "Best band you never heard", etc feature much better musicianship. outside of some of the syhnclavier-only stuff, and man from utopia, i like all of it, and love most of it.

i like the flo and eddie stuff too. all of it rewards repeat listening, and the more of it you hear, the more connections you will see.

i'm 52, and saw zappa many times, with many different line-ups. he was unique, and a gift!

i have the entire collection including many boots on LP, and most of it on cd as well.

laslty, he was a stern task-master, and many of his musicians complained about him stealing their creativity. i've collected many albums of ex-zappa players, and most of them are mediocre, at best. go figure!

happy listening,

Mark

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fzman /img/forum/go_quote.gif that is absolutely wrong!!!! dweezil put together a band of "unknown" young musicians who could actually play zappa's music-- no small feat! he often has a guest alumn or two. i;ve seen the first two tours 1. napoleon murphy brock, steve vai, terry bozzio, and the second one with ray white. there's also a dvd of the first tour available. i am surprised nobody has mentioned zappa.com as a great resource, and to put the money in the zappa family's hands.......

I guess I saw a list of the alumni in the first tour and made an assumption and you know what that means

Quote:

Originally Posted by fzman /img/forum/go_quote.gif aslty, he was a stern task-master, and many of his musicians complained about him stealing their creativity. i've collected many albums of ex-zappa players, and most of them are mediocre, at best. go figure!

I agree, but a lot of them went totally pop, like Missing Persons. I saw them at a festival and they were awful, except for one jam.

I also saw George Duke in concert with Stanley Clarke. It was a phenomenal concert, the their albums were mediocre.

I do have a few alumni albums that are very good. I've yet to hear a Terry Bozzio solo CD that isn't good and Warren Cuccurullo's Thanks to Frank is good as well.

The Bozzio albums I own are Polytown, Solo Drum Music Vol I & II, Solo Drum Music Vol. III, and Chamber Works.

And of course Steve Vai's albums are very good indeed.

I think musicians who complain about him stealing their creativity is just have a bunch of sour grapes. Truly creative members of his band got credit, like Vai and Bozzio. The early Mothers always has seemed like a group effort to me, with Zappa as the leader.