[FalconP]

Here is an interesting interview of Bob Stuart of Meridian about his view on next-generation video formats: interesting comments about how unused features, originally specified by the industrial committees with little regards of customers, have burdened hardware manufacturers and software authors, even back in the days of CDs and DVDs -- no prize guessing that he is not optimistic about the new formats either.

 

[lan]

Thanks for that interview link. I found it pretty interesting. I didn't know CD had 4 channel spec back in the days. I agree that it all comes down to the size of the catalogue and most consumers cannot really tell the difference.

I cannot imagine the authoring software for Blueray and HD-DVD. The DVD one is sort of complicated already.

 

[Uncle Erik]

No one has mentioned the elephant in the room? The "other" Hollywood, the one over in the San Fernando Valley? Their revenues are equal, just about. Yeah, really. Not that I'm involved in it, but the Los Angeles Times runs pieces somewhat regularly and it is interesting. It's one of the largest industries in the country, but we never talk about it.

To get to the point, the adult film industry will coronate the winner of this format war. It always does. A quick Googling will pull up a lot of interesting articles about the formats the larger producers have lined up with. Also, much of interest in the Beta/VHS slugfest a few years back, too. I won't post any links, because I'm not sure where the mods will draw the line with this subject. But from a business angle, it's all very interesting.

 

[archosman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik No one has mentioned the elephant in the room? The "other" Hollywood, the one over in the San Fernando Valley? Their revenues are equal, just about. Yeah, really. Not that I'm involved in it, but the Los Angeles Times runs pieces somewhat regularly and it is interesting. It's one of the largest industries in the country, but we never talk about it. To get to the point, the adult film industry will coronate the winner of this format war. It always does. A quick Googling will pull up a lot of interesting articles about the formats the larger producers have lined up with. Also, much of interest in the Beta/VHS slugfest a few years back, too. I won't post any links, because I'm not sure where the mods will draw the line with this subject. But from a business angle, it's all very interesting.

I was going to post this when I first saw this thread. Uncle Erik is right... and I'll bet Blu-Ray wins on that alone. Quite a few companies are already on the bandwagon. I could swear I saw Vivid Video has already gone with Blue-Ray.

For that matter every year there are about 3 guys that don't make Forbes top 10 list. The reason being is the business they are in...

 

[Snake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1911 i was at the sony store in valley fair in san jose last weekend and there was quite a crowd checking out uinderworld on blu-ray..it looked great but at 13000 for the tv and $$ for player and bluray discs it aint gonna happen

BINGO! Here's the real issue in a nutshell. It doesn't matter squat that Blu-Ray or HD-DVD intro'ed, the fact is that Joe Consumer is just getting used to the fact of having to buy a brand new $1000-$3000 HDTV in the next 2 years.

To expect them to pay ANOTHER $1000 + software for a 'new' format is just wishful thinking at this point.

One of them will survive, but it's going to take a lot more time to shake things out. The hardware won't sell until either (a) more software is available to 'justify' spending the money on the hardware (b) the software become the same price as normal DVD, to only justify having to buying new hardware to get "more" yet spending the same on software, (c) the hardware price comes down substantially or (d) all of the above.

Need proof? Can we say "SACD" and "DVD-A"?

Right now HDTV sales are just blossoming. They can't expect people to leap out on good faith and buy a brand new HD playback format - one that is both very expensive in comparison to "normal" total system outlay (if they are promoting $1400 HDTV's (see Best Buy & Circuit City's weekly ads), $1000 for playback is a lot of money) and with a HUGE question of long-term survival.

 

[Welly Wu]

I saw that interview with Bob Stuart of Meridian. A couple of points that he touched upon are really important to consider if you are going to buy into Sony Blue-Ray or Toshiba's HD-DVD:

1. Content is king and a high resolution format war will only create DVD-Video, HD-DVD, and Sony Blue-Ray sections at your local Blockbuster, Barnes & Noble, and Walmart store. Retail stores do not want to stock multiple formats of the same movie. It is expensive for them to receive three different types of stock of the same movie and it is harder to track the sales data as well. It will confuse the hell out of low wage workers that are responsible for selling the key differences among all three video formats and that is where the sales will die.

2. High definition video formats do not immediately produce "night and day differences" to most people. You really do need top of the line home theater electronics like those sold by Meridian in order to see minor improvements. Bob Stuart said that upconverted DVD-Video is nearly as good a high definition television signal broadcast on most flat panel LCD and Plasma screens. These are the fastest selling digital HDTV displays in the USA and perhaps the world.

3. Format wars have a history of killing off both format's success.

4. The groups and committees that design the specifications for a particular format do not consult consumers about what kind of features or options they would want. Then they add all of these "value added" features that nobody wants and it makes it more difficult for both hardware manufacturers and content providers to create products that fulfill all of those complex and arbitrarily added features that nobody still wants. How do you expect to succeed by selling something to someone that has no input on what it is that he wants?

5. Bob Stuart said that he thinks the DVD-Video format is the most successful format in the history of our hobby and it achieved deep penetration very quickly. He also said that he thinks it has a couple of years left and it will not be easily replaced soon.

6. He ain't exactly holding his breath on HD-DVD and Sony Blue-Ray. He's been the head of Meridian for over 25+ years and he has seen all of the format wars on both the audio and video sides combined. He knows what kind of hurdle these two video formats are facing and he doesn't sound gung ho about any of it.

I liked that interview. I hope others will take 15 minutes of their time to watch it and consider the ramifications.

For me, I got rid of my DVD-Video player because I don't watch videos or movies anymore. It's all about the music itself.

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik No one has mentioned the elephant in the room? The "other" Hollywood, the one over in the San Fernando Valley? Their revenues are equal, just about. Yeah, really. Not that I'm involved in it, but the Los Angeles Times runs pieces somewhat regularly and it is interesting. It's one of the largest industries in the country, but we never talk about it. To get to the point, the adult film industry will coronate the winner of this format war. It always does. A quick Googling will pull up a lot of interesting articles about the formats the larger producers have lined up with. Also, much of interest in the Beta/VHS slugfest a few years back, too. I won't post any links, because I'm not sure where the mods will draw the line with this subject. But from a business angle, it's all very interesting.

Yep, i'm very well aware of this as well. I brought it up last time we were having a next gen discussion about blu-ray and hd-dvd. If the adult movie business is lining up to support blu-ray over hd-dvd, blu-ray will have that distinct advantage.

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu 3. Format wars have a history of killing off both format's success.

Strongly disagree.

Backtrack to the first format war: wax records vs cylinder phonographs. Wax records won out and Edison and other companies producing cylinder's adopted over to wax records. Then vinyl beat out wax records because they were much quieter. VHS beat out Betamax. CD's defeated vinyl and cassette tape and now DVD's beat out VHS. Format wars usually have a winner. SACD and DVD-A flunked out because frankly, wrong time and wrong place. I've owned SACD's and played them back and compared them to their redbook version, I could not hear a damn difference. I've never heard DVD-A since I don't own a DVD-A capable player and frankly i'm not going to waste my money on own. Both formats have been relegated to audiophiles by neglect, so who's fault is that?

It's all about the industry quickly adopting a new format and not splintering into two equal teams, that's a stand still and that adversely affects sales and penetration into the marketplace.

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconP Here is an interesting interview of Bob Stuart of Meridian about his view on next-generation video formats: interesting comments about how unused features, originally specified by the industrial committees with little regards of customers, have burdened hardware manufacturers and software authors, even back in the days of CDs and DVDs -- no prize guessing that he is not optimistic about the new formats either.

very cool. perhaps we all should start to face up to the fact that digital outs are no longer going to be incorporated into consumer units. it's already phased out of the portables...man, the future is looking meager.

 

[smeggy]

I very much doubt I'll be getting either any time soon due to the fact that my reasonably new HDTV (CRT) doesn't have an HDMI input. I have DVI and Component but no HDMI and considering they are all saying this is the only way to properly implement their assinine copy protection crap I will not be participating. My current DVD player upconverts nicely and I'm really not interested in buying whole new and more expensive copies of films I already have. Really, for the minor difference the outlay is just not worth it and I suspect the vast majority of people will feel the same way.

With CD it was a no brainer, it was more convenient a format to use.
With DVD it was clearly way better than VHS in every way.
HDTV again is clearly superior to standard broadcast tv.
HD-DVD and BluRay? Not unless they cease production of standard DVD.

I think the whole thing will fall flat on it's collective face just like SACD, Elcassette, SuperVHS, minidisc et al. People only change to a better format if there's a compelling reason that isn't overly costly or inconvenient and this doesn't look too compelling in any way.

 

[ken36]

DVD quality has gotten pristine in the past few years. Why would anyone spend extra for HD quality?

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by euclid CURRENT HD-DVD is 1080i, the format can/will support true 1080p and one of the major complaints from hd-dvd buyers is that ATM they are forced to invest in inferior hardware and media which will be replaced soon and ultimately become obsolete within the hd-dvd world. LG is reportidly coming out with a universal player, it will come down to the studio support for each format, and how soon the market can support 60"+ 1080p displays, under 50" at 720p it will be very hard to tell the difference between dvd and hd-dvd at regular 6-8' viewing distance. only super-fanboys are thowing money down now, firstly to have the $ to spend on a theater that can benefit, secondly to take such a gamble by choosing a format with so few good movies out for either, IMHO.

not sure if id be considered a fanboy

but there are quite a few hd dvds out right now that have a very big difference compared to SD DVD, IMhO.

even on a 720 display the differences are quite evident. However not everyone will be as senstive to the improved fidelity. Kind of like critical listening between the mid level cans and reference cans.

but then I sit 8 feet away from a 98" display.

 

[RnB180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken36 DVD quality has gotten pristine in the past few years. Why would anyone spend extra for HD quality?

videophiles would, and that would explain why d-vhs has remained in the niche market for so long.

IMO HD DVD has already surpassed anything D VHS has done in just a few weeks.

with hd dvd, there is a notice in clairty, edge enhancement is gone, and there is a much more saturated color pallette. this equates to a much more 3 dimensional image on the screen as SD dvds are riddled with digital halos and washed out understaturated images. HD DVD also has a signifigant boost in audio fidelity.

here are some pics I took of HD DVD on the old screen, "prior" to proper calibration and the silver screen

and the newer releases like Ray and Aeon flux..well I dont think anyone after seeing those two hd dvd titles will have any doubt that it blows away sd dvd. currently though I think mainly the individuals viewing the content on big screens will appreciate the benefits more so, as its the finer details like skin texture, hair strands andsuch that make the biggest difference.

compared to the cinema, sd dvd was never close to the fidelity at the movie theaters. as watching an upconverted sd dvd on the big screen still looks fuzzy and object edges are thick and indescript rather than thin and detailed like the movies. HD DVD brings the movies that much closer to a filmlike image.

 

[lmilhan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken36 DVD quality has gotten pristine in the past few years. Why would anyone spend extra for HD quality?

For some of the same reasons why an audiophile would spend several thousands of dollars on a pair of Omega 2s, an ES-1 amp, a fancy DAC, CD player, and Vinly rig instead of just listening to their music on a pair of KSC-75s being driven by an iPOD with their mp3 collection ripped at 128kbps.

 

[spudman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy I very much doubt I'll be getting either any time soon due to the fact that my reasonably new HDTV (CRT) doesn't have an HDMI input. I have DVI and Component but no HDMI and considering they are all saying this is the only way to properly implement their assinine copy protection crap I will not be participating. My current DVD player upconverts nicely and I'm really not interested in buying whole new and more expensive copies of films I already have. Really, for the minor difference the outlay is just not worth it and I suspect the vast majority of people will feel the same way. With CD it was a no brainer, it was more convenient a format to use. With DVD it was clearly way better than VHS in every way. HDTV again is clearly superior to standard broadcast tv. HD-DVD and BluRay? Not unless they cease production of standard DVD. I think the whole thing will fall flat on it's collective face just like SACD, Elcassette, SuperVHS, minidisc et al. People only change to a better format if there's a compelling reason that isn't overly costly or inconvenient and this doesn't look too compelling in any way.

I am going to jump in here with what I hope is my first post of substance. Having come to this forum from the AV side of things, I feel that I am qualified to give an opinion.

Video, like audio, is a progression of upgrades. My upgrade path usually focuses on the weak link in the chain, where I do a cost/benefit analysis and compare that to whether or not what I have is good enough. I went with front projection lcd before high definition was available. Although my friends thought it was great I was always disturbed by the screen door look and that one bad pixel. I had laserdisc, and could watch Star Wars with only 3 disc changes!

Upgraded to a combo laserdisc/dvd player, upgraded to ac-3 sound, 5.1, etc. I'm sure it's the same story with many of you. After my second five hundred dollar bulb went out on the projector, it was time to upgrade the display. HD ready dlp was my choice. It's native resolution-720P. Upgraded to a progressive scan dvd player with sacd and dvd-audio. I could not believe my system sounded that good.

Now, with around 400 dvd titles, I have another choice to make. I've been on the losing side of beta/vhs too, by the way, because beta was the first with hifi audio. (I also bought more than one copy of The Fifth Element.) I think I choose to leave the dvds alone for now. It still falls under the good enough category. Dvds look pretty darn good at 720P. I guess this means I am not a videophile. Plus, when I bought the dlp, there was no hdmi. So, I've just got component or dvi inputs. The expense of upgrade at this time is not justified.

Bottom line is I agree with the quoted post.