For the skeptics, which tweaks have you found to actually work?

[meat01]

Quote:

Btw, why vibration isolation for turn tables but not for cd players? The cds are being read by a laser sitting on an analog driven motor being spun by an analog motor.

The CD player laser is so much more precise and the platter is already suspended in such a way that isolation is not necessary. If the CD player needed isolation, you would hear the laser hit the wrong pit in the CD. The laser is optical and produces 1 and 0s. Also it does not physically touch the disc. Vibration does not cause a 1 to be a 0 and vice versa. I just don't think CD player vibration is audible. Sure it may vibrate, but the laser still hits the right section of the CD and the sound comes out the same to our ears.

A turntable is a mechanical cartridge making physical contact to a record.

 

[JaZZ]

Like everybody else, instead of mere tweaks I'm simply listing all the stuff I can hear a difference with when changed.


Decisive difference
Room acoustics (with speakers)

Very obvious difference
Speakers
Headphones
Speaker placement (even mm can make a difference)

Clearly noticeable difference
Amplifiers (all sorts and stages -- and not just between tubes and solid-state!)
CD players and DACs
CD vs. SACD format
CD transports
Meier Crossfeed
Headphone positioning / loose grip--tight grip (headband/earpad wear-in/-out)
Lencoclean fluid (for vinyl records)
Record mats
Phono cartridges (I'm sure arms and transports also make a lot of difference, but don't have much experience with analog sources)

Minor, but still clearly audible difference
Headphone cables
Interconnect cables
Speaker cables
Break-in effect with headphones
Burn-in effect with amps
Burn-in effect with Zu Mobius cable
Tuberolling
963SA upsampling effect
Washing CDs before listening using water and dishwashing liquid (excellent free tweak, but a bit time-consuming -- just rinse the water/liquid from the disk with the water jet, so you don't have to rub it down)
High-quality capacitors (with crossover networks)

Subtle difference, could even be imaginated
Digital cables (thought I heard clear differences, but I'm not sure anymore with older, tinnitus-plagued ears)
Black CD edges

No difference
Cable splitters
1/8"-->1/4" adapters
Power conditioner (had one for a weekend years ago -- actually I don't doubt the effect under different circumstances or maybe with a different device)

Not tried yet
Power cords
Meier Analoguer (will soon have the opportunity to try)

 

[ooheadsoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 The CD player laser is so much more precise and the platter is already suspended in such a way that isolation is not necessary. If the CD player needed isolation, you would hear the laser hit the wrong pit in the CD. The laser is optical and produces 1 and 0s. Also it does not physically touch the disc. Vibration does not cause a 1 to be a 0 and vice versa. I just don't think CD player vibration is audible. Sure it may vibrate, but the laser still hits the right section of the CD and the sound comes out the same to our ears. A turntable is a mechanical cartridge making physical contact to a record.

The farther the laser is from the cd, the greater the room for error. I'm not talking about the laser mechanism itself. It's the motor that is spinning the cd and the motorized rack the laser is sitting on. These parts of a cd player can be so bad that all sorts of things can screw up. I have a dvd player that can't hold the disc any more and every few seconds or so, it'll drop the disc and I can hear it rattling inside the player. Everything is usually "ok" unless the buffer runs out while it's still trying to pick up the disc. However, with this astoundingly large level of error, I can't believe that the laser is being put in the right spot for it to read every single pit and land. It's highly unlikely IMO. As I mentioned before, I haven't heard a difference myself audio wise, but then again, I haven't tried anything costing more than $2 either. Not to mention my sources are all coupled to my right speaker through my desk, so I doubt any amount of vibration decouplers would help

Still, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of it helping in some minute degree as a 100% impossibility.

 

[DBT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo I also dare you to try high capacitance cables with a passive preamp and tell me you can't hear that the sound is all jacked up (with decent speakers.) Btw, why vibration isolation for turn tables but not for cd players? The cds are being read by a laser sitting on an analog driven motor being spun by an analog motor. Plenty of analog going around that could suffer from vibration. I haven't really heard an improvement in my system though I will admit I haven't tried any expensive vibration dampening products. Nothing over $2 at least. "esoteric capacitors, resistors and inductors" These all have measurable differences from cheaper parts. Value variations are much lower. That should offer some kind of benefit, audible or not.

I wouldnt consider using a passive preamp with high capacitance cables, as the combination could (and probably would) cause an audible difference. Thats why I made the condition of using reasonable quality products in my list. IMO, using such passive devices in conjunction wouldnt be a good idea.

Vibration for digital devices isnt a problem because the analog circuits aren't affected by it. A cd player being affected by vibration will either read the sample, or not (jitter be damed for a second

), while a record player will still emit a sound even when violently shaken. The reason turntables are affected is because of the moving parts, the stylus touching the record and picking up the sound. Even very small vibrations could affect the sound to an audible extent. Now, if you live in an environment where your cd player is constantly being shaken to the point that it skips (can't think of any real world examples of this), then yes, I do believe that vibration isolation could help.

The problem I see with exotic components is that they sometimes dont even spec out as well as cheaper ones. For example take the Autdiocap Theta and Kimber Cap and compare it to Solen's poly caps. The Audiocap and Kimber Cap have a 10 percent tolerance, while the Solen has a 5 percent tolerence. The Kimber and Audiocap also cost almost 10 times as much as the Solen. I realize that the capacitance value changes of 10 percent are very unlikely to be audible, but that still is ironic IMO. However, esoteric IS a pretty broad term, and while I may consider Solen to be reasonably priced, others may think it is too expensive, and electrolytic caps are a better value

 

[darkclouds]

I managed to spend an outrageous amount of money (for me anyway, about 1k total) on vibration damping consisting of custom made cherry platforms 3" and 4" thick for all of my components along with tube damping rings from herbie's audio lab and various cones/spikes. The results? I'd like to think it did something positive. But in all honesty, I'd have to say anywhere between a definitive "no" and "maybe imagined". What it does give me is peace of mind (as in I've taking care of every possible angle). And for what it's worth, I think it looks pretty cool with the cherry platforms and tube damping rings

Hey, it's a freaken hobby! I don't have to be totally serious about it. You're supposed to be enjoying this.

 

[DBT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ipodstudio CD Players? No difference? Even in a shop with all the distractions and with my very limited experience I can hear the difference between many CD players in the same class...

Not really. Even if the differences were so large, they would pale in comparison to the difference between headphones (or speakers). IMO, until you have the best of the best, worrying about the other components is somewhat wasted.

I honestly doubt I will ever upgrade my headphones (hd-600) unless they break, so I am at the point where I have the best I can have. In december I upgraded to a M-audio Audiophile 2496 to replace the onboard sound in my computer (95% of my listening is done on the PC). I honestly heard little to no difference between the two driving the Cmoy (although the noise floor seemed lower on the audiophile).

I also believe that it helps to know that you have quality components compared to cheaper ones. It helps *me* feel secure to have quality components, even though I know that they may not make an audible difference to me.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBT A cd player being affected by vibration will either read the sample, or not (jitter be damed for a second ),

Actually, won't it either read the sample...or it will read something else? It's gonna read something but not necessarily the sample. A pit could be read as a land, or a land could be read as a pit, or it could generate a read error and have to wait until the disc makes a revolution before making another attempt. In these 3 situations, only the third would be solved with a buffer.

 

[tomek]

at times like this, when the vibration of cd players is called into question and people worry about 'losing data' due to tiny vibrations, i'd like to remind everyone that their 25 dollar cd roms spin 40x faster than their cd players and they need to be correct bit for bit in order for software to function.


i really don't think that cd vibration is an issue, especially not one that could be resolved outside of the player. come on, i know my audiophile cd player weighs 37lbs.


jitter however, does make sense to me and I think it could be possible. whether it's audible or not I'm not sure yet. I've heard mixed reviews.


tomek

ps: fwiw, i use the cones that my CDP came with. hey, they look cool.

 

[DBT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo Actually, won't it either read the sample...or it will read something else? It's gonna read something but not necessarily the sample. A pit could be read as a land, or a land could be read as a pit, or it could generate a read error and have to wait until the disc makes a revolution before making another attempt. In these 3 situations, only the third would be solved with a buffer.

Due to the error correction, I doubt it would pass the data, but I'm not very well read on compact disc

Don't most cd players have buit in audio buffers anyways? I know portable cd players too. I'd assume they'd use them for home players now too

 

[DBT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomek jitter however, does make sense to me and I think it could be possible. whether it's audible or not I'm not sure yet. I've heard mixed reviews.

I'm with you on jitter. Not really sure on how audible it is. I do think that in this day and age, even cheap cd players and dac's should be able to take care of it though.

 

[ooheadsoo]

I would imagine that they have some kind of buffer system by now...I really hate my dvd rom though

CDroms definitely have buffers...and they aren't fool proof either, error correction be damned. Data also has several layers of encoding to protect its integrity. "25 dollar cd roms spin 40x faster than their cd players" And that's why they don't really spin 40x faster

It's a rather optimistic designation, most don't even reach 40x on the outside edge and let's not get into maintaining the speed because it can't read the data

 

[peter braun]

I reinforced the cabinets of my PSB Alpha A/Vs with a $4 piece of 1" x 10" particle board (cut and glued within the interior of the cabinet) and the difference is dramatic. I was considering purchasing either a pair of JmLab Chorus 705s ($350) or Epos ESL 3s ($300) but even after auditioning both speakers I do not feel that either offers a significant improvement over my modded PSBs. Anyone who is looking into a pair of speakers from $0-300 should consider this mod as it can save quite a bit of money.

P.S. For some reason my system always sounds warmer after dark.

 

[SKA_tillites]

The differences I've noticed on my kit.

Off board phono stage,provide a massive improvement to onboard ones.
Stylus, try to get the best you can,these really can improve the sound big time.
Arm, just something like a Rega RB300/600,really gives a lift in vinyl playback.

Source An offboard DAC,for me really improved CD playback,two that I have owned have really gave CD the kick it needed to sound acceptable.Vinyl deck really improve with better materials,isolation,power supplies for more than CD.

Speakers Well pretty clear when it comes to speakers,thier placement interaction with room modes and acoustics.


cables Well I have heard differences,but not great and certainly not night and day,Kimber PC did nada,whereas on the other hand the Shunyatas,were more dynamic,clearer ,louder,nice cables.

Improvements using Audioquest speaker cables,again clearer,more natural,less grain,but no difference between the Indigo and the Midnight.

In one room I heard big difference in interconects,but the same cable in a different room,seemed to lose the effect,strange!,but still like Audioquest Pythons,and my own Diamonds,not essential,but help improve the whole infrastructure of the system.

Never really tried conditions,seem to have plus points an negatives,such as killing the groove,hmmm not nice.

 

[tomek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooheadsoo I would imagine that they have some kind of buffer system by now...I really hate my dvd rom though CDroms definitely have buffers...and they aren't fool proof either, error correction be damned. Data also has several layers of encoding to protect its integrity. "25 dollar cd roms spin 40x faster than their cd players" And that's why they don't really spin 40x faster It's a rather optimistic designation, most don't even reach 40x on the outside edge and let's not get into maintaining the speed because it can't read the data

Well, if not 40x faster, I know they can spin at least 10x faster. And not all cd players have buffers. Older drives did not, and are the drives of choice for EAC. I use my older 40x drive that came with my 4 year old computer when I do extractions.

I just can't buy into the idea that skipping over data is a problem in my 37lb Cd player with it's elaborate VRDS vibration reduction system that would be solved by some kind of external feet or cones, when my cdrom drive in my computer extracts audio information at 13x, checking over everything twice just to make sure.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Oh yeah. How much vibration are you guys thinking of when talking about vibration dampening? I, for one, have my cd player on my desk with a speaker sitting on the far right and a subwoofer firing at it from the left. I can very clearly feel my desk vibrating from the oscillation of my speakers, which will clearly shake my cd player up. Actually, all my amps are sitting on this desk too, including my tube pre