[gibosi]

  Sorry gibosi, but according to ebay rules it is not the responsibility of the buyer to study 'pictures' - it is his responsibility to read the listing description carefully. And the seller has strict listing rules he should abide by as part of terms and conditions...and I quote  :
 
http://Ensure your item is authentic You can't list replicas, fakes, counterfeits or other illegal copies on eBay. For example: Don't list an item that bears the brand name or logo of a company that did not manufacture or authorise the product Don't list homemade or otherwise unauthorised copies of music, movies, television programmes or software Under the law, it is no excuse to say that you didn't know the item you were selling was a counterfeit or a pirated copy. It's your responsibility to investigate your source for product and stand behind everything you sell.
 
http://2. Ensure the statements in your listing are accurate Ensure that all statements and claims in your listing are true and complete. Rights owners may object to listings that contain false, inaccurate or misleading claims about their products. If you're not sure whether a statement you want to make is true, double-check it and rely only on credible sources. Someone on a message board may sound like they know what they're talking about but you're the one who will be responsible for the content. Making sure that your listing is accurate and complete will not only help you avoid intellectual property concerns, it will also help buyers understand what they're buying. This will minimise any miscommunication that might lead to a poor transaction and negative feedback.
 
In addition, ebayers selling internationally must abide by the consumer laws of the countries targeted - and here in the UK especially, there are very strict laws regarding any kind of misleading advertising, so that 'caveat emptor'  is no protection for fraudulent - or careless - instances of seller behaviour.
 
Hence I stand by my previous statements re the particular listing in question, lol...

 
Given the prevalence of relabeled tubes, your interpretation of the eBay rules is unreasonable and unworkable. Every vendor would have to be able to recognize whether a tube had been relabeled, and further, ascertain the original manufacturer. As an obvious example, this would present an almost insurmountable hurdle when trying to sell Motorola, Philips, Haltron and similarly relabeled tubes. Very few vendors have adequate knowledge and experience to enable them to comply with such a high standard. But notice the word "authorise" above. Motorola and other rebranders were most certainly authorized to sell the tubes they relabeled. So describing a tube as a Motorola is most certainly not misleading or fraudulent. And of course, this extends to all examples of authorized relabeling, such as a Brimar relabeled as a Mullard, and so on.
 
Based on these eBay rules, the recent sale of a pair of 6AS7G that has everyone all worked up does not appear to be misleading or fraudulent. The tubes were labeled as GEC. This is a fact verified by the pictures. And according to eBay rules, the vendor did not lie or misrepresent that fact. While some may believe the tubes are fake, there is absolutely no proof to back up such a claim. It is equally possible that they were simply relabeled, and it is doubtful that anyone alive today, including the seller, knows the real truth. With no proof to the contrary, the vendor cannot be faulted for assuming that the relabeling was "authorized."
 
Hence, I stand by my assertion: Labels cannot be trusted. It is the buyer's responsibility to perform the necessary due diligence, closely examining all the information provided, both text and pictures, to verify that the listed tubes are the "real deal".
 
By the way H1, using your interpretation of eBay rules, it would appear that the listing for the Haltron 6AS7G you recently purchased was misleading. Haltron most certainly did not manufacture that tube...
 
Cheers

 

[mordy]

Hi G and h1,
 
Once a judge had two people in front of him, arguing over a matter.
 
The first person presented his case. After hearing him, the judge said: You are right.
 
Then the second person presented his side of the story. After listening to him, the judge said: You are right.
 
Whereupon the first person said: How is it possible for you to say that he is right, and I am right?
 
Answers the judge: You are right!

 

[Oskari]

Mordy, you are right!

(But seller is not a very nice person if concealing the truth…)

 

[hpamdr]

Mordy, you are right!

(But seller is not a very nice person if concealing the truth…)

Oskary you are right, the seller should be blacklisted on HeadFi.
He is in tube business and know what he did ! He even show for some tube with an avo lampmeter where 100% is on AVG
 
Mordy, To my knowledge a judge never say you are right unless you plead guilty.

 

[hypnos1]

gibosi, of course you are right concerning the minefield of tube labelling and the general unfeasibility surrounding verification of every single tube - or of many other items listed on ebay! And yes, we buyers need to be as vigilant as possible, lol...
 
However, as hpamdr states, this seller is obviously not an "amateur" and has had plenty of experience in this particular field. Therefore it is a totally different ballgame in this case - which puts the onus much more on the seller to abide by ebay listing rules, not to mention the kinds of stringent laws governing such transactions in countries such as here in the UK (Our Trading Standards Dept. would be all over something like this...). Ebay selling rules clearly state that "ignorance" is no defence in these cases.
This is also not my "interpretation" of said ebay rules...it is their statement of facts...
 
And so, whereas in general fully accurate/correct information is indeed likely to be unworkable, at least in individual cases the buyer now has very good protection and recourse under these ebay rules...(Once again, I only hope the buyer in question realises he would have a very good case indeed!).
 
But yes, be extra careful out there, y'all!! 

 
ps.  My own good fortune re the Haltron-labelled GEC tube is hardly relevant with regard to this particular case, lol!

 

[Jeb Listens]

^ I would agree. 
 
There's "what you can get away with on eBay", then there's not making a ******-bag listing on eBay, which you know has a high probability of resulting in some less-knowledegable / newbie tube roller getting screwed over.
 
Still, Gibosi's (and Hypnos') message to be super-vigilant is a very good one indeed, since it's clear that eBay will do you few favours in protecting you against irresponsible sellers or your own lack of experience. 
 
Since lots of people here are keeping a close-watch on eBay I hope we'll all do our bit to call out such listings to help those who are new to the game.  
 
This thread is the number one google hit for 6AS7g rolling - so it's a great platform for doing so. 
 
 
 
edit:  oh wow you can't say ***** here. Who knew. 

 

[gibosi]

It seems to me that some here believe that eBay should interpret their rules one way for experienced sellers and another way for inexperienced sellers (like someone who has been given the job of liquidating an estate and knows nothing about tubes). But I am quite sure the rules are the same for all sellers, simply, the vendor must provide an accurate description. And like it nor not, the above referenced vendor did just that, using text and pictures. Without a doubt, the tubes the buyer receives will be exactly as described in the listing and I seriously doubt that the buyer will be able to make a convincing case that he/she was deliberately deceived by the seller. I may be wrong, but based on my experience, having purchased something over 1000 tubes on eBay, I doubt it. This doesn't mean that I approve of this vendor's behavior, but I don't think he broke the rules.
 
Like most things in life, knowledge is key. Do your due diligence. Google is an amazing resource. Learn as much as you can about the tubes you want. Most importantly, look at lots of pictures so you can recognize any distinguishing features. And there are many kind folks on this forum who will be happy to answer your questions.
 
And finally, don't bid on expensive tubes until you are absolutely positive that the tubes in the listing are precisely the tubes you hope they are.
 
Cheers

 

[hypnos1]

Ah well g, to each his own opinion lol...
 
Your closing advice should certainly be well heeded however...

 
Cheers!

 

[Jeb Listens]

I'm just pleased to hear no one actually approves of that kind of seller-behaviour, regardless of what is technically allowed/prohibited.  I think lots of people here just thought it was a bit of a lame listing. Morally, more than anything else.  
 
Of course he probably didn't have to either a) mention he didn't know if they were really GEC manufactured or  b) clearly state they were Russian 
 
But we all know it would have at least been the decent thing to do.   I fully agree that doesn't count for anything in the wild-world of tube buying and you most certainly shouldn't depend on it - even from experienced tube sellers with 100% feedback.  
 
 
On the subject of 6AS7Gs.  After listening to most of the available options - I must say the Tung-Sol 6AS7G really stands out for me.  Perhaps even more than the 5998. Perhaps doesn't have the balance/resolution of the 5998 but tonally it's just more aligned with my tastes.  It seems to throw a holographic mid-range that I didn't quite experience with any of the others to the same extent.  A really nice tube indeed. 
 
(If anyone tells me these are actually "fakes", I'm selling everything tomorrow and going solid-state). 
 
 

 

[gibosi]

  On the subject of 6AS7Gs.  After listening to most of the available options - I must say the Tung-Sol 6AS7G really stands out for me.  Perhaps even more than the 5998. Perhaps doesn't have the balance/resolution of the 5998 but tonally it's just more aligned with my tastes.  It seems to throw a holographic mid-range that I didn't quite experience with any of the others to the same extent.  A really nice tube indeed. 
 
(If anyone tells me these are actually "fakes", I'm selling everything tomorrow and going solid-state). 

 
Yours are the real thing.
 
However, it is important to remember that prior to Tung-Sol's acquisition of Chatham, in the late 1950's, Tung-Sol did not manufacture the 6ASG. They simply sourced and relabeled this tube from RCA and Chatham. Yours appear to have been manufactured after the acquisition, in 1966, in a factory once owned and operated by Chatham. Enjoy.

 

[gibosi]

I recently had a rather crazy thought...  We occasionally see these 6AS7G, labeled "Made in England", but obviously manufactured on a Russian assembly line. However, we don't know where that assembly line was located. Is it possible that in the waning years of British vacuum tube production, since there was still some demand for replacement tubes, some entity purchased Russian vacuum tube assembly line equipment and set up a factory in England?  lol.

 

[vapman]

eBay will be concerned that you received the same item that was shown in the auction... that is to say, the sellers posts photos of the item, unless the sellers' description contradicts what is in the photos, if that is what you got then eBay says the transaction was legit but you should have been more careful not to buy something you didn't want.
 
What eBay won't protect against is sellers who are out to take advantage of less knowledgeable buyers. So you can't bid a high amount on something, realize you got ripped off, and then be like "hey that isn't very nice!", eBay will be like "as long as you paid it and the seller sent you the proper item and it arrived intact there's no problem here".
 
I stopped selling on eBay in 2012 due to 9/10 auctions I sold result in having to relist due to non-payment  but I signed up and started selling in 1998 so I feel any situation that could have happened with buying or selling on eBay, I experienced it.
 
Just my 2 cents strictly regarding the eBay dishonest seller comments. I don't agree with the seller's actions from a moral standpoint but from eBay's ethics they base their rules off of there isn't anything wrong there. After all, much of eBay's business comes from sellers "ripping off" unknowing buyers. If it didn't, why would the "Best Match" setting provide you with the more expensive deals eBay has to offer?
 
I don't know anything about UK laws but out here there is no sort of legal protection against a seller ripping you off because you didn't know what you were buying and overpaid.
 
edit 2: It actually was common that later tube stuff was made with either Russian assembly lines or within Russia but on contract of out of country companies. Reminds me of Electro-Harmonix/Sovtek in the 80's who outsourced all their tube production to Russia as that was the last place that still had manufacturing sites for tubes. Tube technology lasted a while out there! I think, though, that would lead me to believe later production tubes would be made in Russia and shipped out, unless Russian companies were liquidating their assembly lines and sending them out of the country in this time period, leading to a scenario such as that which @gibosi describes

 

[Oskari]

  Yours are the real thing.

 
I was going to tell Jeb that they are Shuguangs...

 

[Oskari]

  I recently had a rather crazy thought...  We occasionally see these 6AS7G, labeled "Made in England", but obviously manufactured on a Russian assembly line. However, we don't know where that assembly line was located. Is it possible that in the waning years of British vacuum tube production, since there was still some demand for replacement tubes, some entity purchased Russian vacuum tube assembly line equipment and set up a factory in England?  lol.

 
You got at least the crazy part right. 

 
I'm only aware of Svetlana having made them; so, this shouldn't be too far off: https://goo.gl/maps/FkvCQTcLU412

 

[Jeb Listens]

I was going to tell Jeb that they are Shuguangs...

LOL. Anybody want to buy a Shuguang-Tung-Sol with a GEC sticker?

Made in England. Tested Good. No returns.