FlaresPro/FlaresGold by Flare Audio
Aug 24, 2017 at 6:00 PM Post #121 of 1,354
The Flares are one of the least hiss-prone phones I have owned. I really doubt that anyone owning the Flares will be using them with cheap MP3 devices!

Well, I'm using them with the Meridian Explorer2, and I can hear the hiss. Its unfortunate though, because everything else about the FlaresPro is great.

I think the problem may be in the tuning of the higher treble region. According to the graph Flare sent to me, there is a pretty large, extended increase in the upper treble area, whereas companies looking to reduce sibilance but still have plenty of detail and spaciousness tune the lower treble to be increased, while reducing the upper treble.

I know Flare Audio wanted to get a "live" sound out of this, but why tune the area most difficult on sibilance to get that sound. Just tune the lower treble and avoid the hiss, even if its only on certain music. It ruins the whole point of neutrality and in trying to adapt to the natural sound of the music itself.

Flare did such a fantastic job tuning the bass and the vocals on them, but messed with the treble. Its very disappointing.
 
Aug 24, 2017 at 6:51 PM Post #122 of 1,354
An update of sorts,

I tried out the Zorloo Zuperdac with the FlaresPro, and my advice towards anyone wanting more bass from their FlaresPro, I definitely recommend the Zorloo Zuperdac. Just as it did with the HiFiMan RE800, it increases the bass by alot! It is what led me on my search for a high quality portable dac that didn't amplify the bass output, which is why I decided on the Meridian Explorer2.

It did help reduce the bass on the RE800, though the bass hump on the unit of RE800 I had, still was a bit too much for me. I never found out from HiFiMan whether the unit of it I had was tuned more bassy or if the vent position was positioned where it was getting blocked by the deep insertion.

Anyways, the reason I still have and really like the Zorloo Zuperdac, is that its great for the Moving Armature driver Grado GR10e I have. Although its not so good for my usage of Dynamic drivers, I wanted to test it out on the hissing issue I'm hearing from the FlaresPro. It didn't help at all. It just increased the bass, while leaving the hiss as is.

I've never really used an equalizer before, but as I suspect this hissing issue is being caused by the treble tuning in the upper treble region, I may try to reduce it on an equalizer. I'm not sure how great that will help though, because if tuning could be changed so easily by a software program, there wouldn't be such a vast market of different sounding iems.
 
Aug 24, 2017 at 7:04 PM Post #123 of 1,354
Well, I'm using them with the Meridian Explorer2, and I can hear the hiss. Its unfortunate though, because everything else about the FlaresPro is great.

I think the problem may be in the tuning of the higher treble region. According to the graph Flare sent to me, there is a pretty large, extended increase in the upper treble area, whereas companies looking to reduce sibilance but still have plenty of detail and spaciousness tune the lower treble to be increased, while reducing the upper treble.

I know Flare Audio wanted to get a "live" sound out of this, but why tune the area most difficult on sibilance to get that sound. Just tune the lower treble and avoid the hiss, even if its only on certain music. It ruins the whole point of neutrality and in trying to adapt to the natural sound of the music itself.

Flare did such a fantastic job tuning the bass and the vocals on them, but messed with the treble. Its very disappointing.

Don't believe passive earphones hiss on their own. IEMs are highly efficient. Much like horn speakers, they will find any hiss or hum and make it noticeable. The Flare probably increases this some due to their upper range peak. It can likely be cured rather easily. Insert a voltage divider in line between the Explorer and the Flares. Used to be that a person had to diy a voltage divider. This is such a common problem with IEMs that iFi now sells a slick one. It runs about $50. Besides reducing hiss it "repositions" the volume control so it is more in the middle of the range. No more playing every thing on the lowest 1 or 2 volume positions.

Here is a review: https://headfonics.com/2017/05/the-iematch-by-ifi-audio/

If you are a diy person a voltage divider can be built using male and female 3.5mm trs connectors and 4 resistors! I use one at night to allow very low volume levels for sleeping. It even allows a cheap, noisy, Boosteroo amp to play IEMs noise free. I can find the website that shows how to build this, if you want to give it a try.
 
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Aug 24, 2017 at 7:22 PM Post #124 of 1,354
Don't believe passive earphones hiss on their own. IEMs are highly efficient. Much like horn speakers, they will find any hiss or hum and make it noticeable. The Flare probably increases this some due to their upper range peak. It can likely be cured rather easily. Insert a voltage divider in line between the Explorer and the Flares. Used to be that a person had to diy a voltage divider. This is such a common problem with IEMs that iFi now sells a slick one. It runs about $50. Besides reducing hiss it "repositions" the volume control so it is more in the middle of the range. No more playing every thing on the lowest 1 or 2 volume positions.

Here is a review: https://headfonics.com/2017/05/the-iematch-by-ifi-audio/

If you are a diy person a voltage divider can be built using male and female 3.5mm trs connectors and 4 resistors! I use one at night to allow very low volume levels for sleeping. It even allows a cheap, noisy, Boosteroo amp to play IEMs noise free. I can find the website that shows how to build this, if you want to give it a try.

Thank you, barondla for your helpful response. I can't diy, due to my disability, but I did look over at the ifi product site. While that looks like it might help with the hiss, it adds 1ohm to the output impedance, which means more bass on Dynamic driver iems, such as the FlaresPro.

Right now, using the Meridian Explorer2, the bass is as near perfectly neutral I think a Dynamic driver iem is going to get, which the only lesser bass I've seen either is on the Apple AirPods or the B&O Play Earset earbud model with their downward sloping subbass that veers to neutral throughout the mid to upper bass. That would be my ultimate preference, but total neutrality throughout the bass is acceptable to me. Any higher than that, then no. The Zorloo Zuperdac adds bass, which was a major problem listening to the boom in the with the FlaresPro. The Meridian Explorer2 has the bass on it just fine, no more.

Otherwise, I'd say this hiss reduction would be great if it just didn't add ohm. I might be okay with it if it were just half an ohm, but a full ohm is taking it too much. I see that this also has the option for 2.5ohm. Yikes!
 
Aug 24, 2017 at 8:08 PM Post #125 of 1,354
An update of sorts,

I tried out the Zorloo Zuperdac with the FlaresPro, and my advice towards anyone wanting more bass from their FlaresPro, I definitely recommend the Zorloo Zuperdac. Just as it did with the HiFiMan RE800, it increases the bass by alot! It is what led me on my search for a high quality portable dac that didn't amplify the bass output, which is why I decided on the Meridian Explorer2.

It did help reduce the bass on the RE800, though the bass hump on the unit of RE800 I had, still was a bit too much for me. I never found out from HiFiMan whether the unit of it I had was tuned more bassy or if the vent position was positioned where it was getting blocked by the deep insertion.

Anyways, the reason I still have and really like the Zorloo Zuperdac, is that its great for the Moving Armature driver Grado GR10e I have. Although its not so good for my usage of Dynamic drivers, I wanted to test it out on the hissing issue I'm hearing from the FlaresPro. It didn't help at all. It just increased the bass, while leaving the hiss as is.

I've never really used an equalizer before, but as I suspect this hissing issue is being caused by the treble tuning in the upper treble region, I may try to reduce it on an equalizer. I'm not sure how great that will help though, because if tuning could be changed so easily by a software program, there wouldn't be such a vast market of different sounding iems.

Have you tried using the Bluetooth module from a source that supports aptX? I use both my HTC10 and Shanling M1 as transports and both deliver superb results with no audible hiss.
 
Aug 24, 2017 at 8:16 PM Post #126 of 1,354
Thank you, barondla for your helpful response. I can't diy, due to my disability, but I did look over at the ifi product site. While that looks like it might help with the hiss, it adds 1ohm to the output impedance, which means more bass on Dynamic driver iems, such as the FlaresPro.

Right now, using the Meridian Explorer2, the bass is as near perfectly neutral I think a Dynamic driver iem is going to get, which the only lesser bass I've seen either is on the Apple AirPods or the B&O Play Earset earbud model with their downward sloping subbass that veers to neutral throughout the mid to upper bass. That would be my ultimate preference, but total neutrality throughout the bass is acceptable to me. Any higher than that, then no. The Zorloo Zuperdac adds bass, which was a major problem listening to the boom in the with the FlaresPro. The Meridian Explorer2 has the bass on it just fine, no more.

Otherwise, I'd say this hiss reduction would be great if it just didn't add ohm. I might be okay with it if it were just half an ohm, but a full ohm is taking it too much. I see that this also has the option for 2.5ohm. Yikes!

Not sure it would increase the bass. Higher output impedance means it would tend to follow the frequency response curve, allowing the peaks and dips to be slightly greater. According to Stereophile Magazine's test of the Explorer 2
"As claimed by Meridian, the headphone output impedance was lower than the original's, at <1 ohm at all audio frequencies. So if you take .47 ohm (Meridian's stat) and add 1 ohm that is still very low. Many say the earphone impedance should be 8X the players output impedance. If the FlaresPro are like the original Flare R2 they are 16 ohm. Even with the voltage divider inline you are under the wire! You could always order one to try and send it back if the sound is not what you want.

Sorry I didn't remember you don't diy. I talk to so many people here and elsewhere. Memory isn't what it used to be. Think my voltage divider is higher than 1 ohm. Believe it is 3 ohms. I don't notice a huge frequency difference with most of my headphones. Of course the Flare R2Pro are pretty even impedance wise ( look at some of those multi driver ba for a real roller coaster ride). The Mitchell & Johnson headphones have a transformer for half the range and they are 32 ohm.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...ne-amplifier-measurements#8HiSv9XCO7orGb58.99
 
Aug 25, 2017 at 1:45 AM Post #127 of 1,354
Alright, I decided to try fixing the irritating hissing issue by testing the equalizer settings using Windows Media Player on my Windows 7 laptop/notebook computer, which is an old Asus ROG PC from around 2011. I connected the Meridian Explorer2 to it, and then connected the Flares Audio FlaresPro to the Meridian Explorer2.

The results had me quite surprised by how much the equalizer actually did affect the sound, much more than I had assumed earlier when I posted here on Head-Fi about it. Unfortunately though, the graphics equalizer changed so much of the sound, that by moving a few sliders to adjust the hiss production, negatively affected some important areas of the audio.

While I was adjusting the sliders and trying to figure out how this might help, if at all, I realized something that someone here on Head-Fi had mentioned here recently, regarding their opinion that the FlaresPro are V-Shaped. It dawned on me that there are two distinct ways at perceiving a sound signature from viewing an audio frequency response graph.

One way is to primarily look around at the middle region in seeing if there is a dip in the frequency between the end of the bass and the beginning of the treble. While these dips can exist in other areas of the frequency, the main dip that forms the V-Shaped sound signature is between the bass and the treble, but can be interpreted differently, just as it can vary in sound.

That generally is how I perceive if an iem has a V-Shaped sound signature from reading an audio frequency response graph using that particular viewpoint. However, I realize there are other ways of looking at it, including taking into consideration the entire frequency response graph. I am going to repost the official graph I recently received from James at Flare Audio, right here :

FLARES PRO Freq Resp (2).png


When looking at the graph in its entirety, I can see how some may perceive the sound signature as being V-Shaped. I don't view it as the same kind of V-Shape as what I've learned from audiophiles and audio enthusiasts, along with those audio technology experts. However, when viewed as a whole, its an extended form of a V-Shape.

I took this into serious consideration when I was testing the graphics equalizer. I realize my sound signature preference, of which I'm having the graphics designer who drew my original preference graph, to revise it, reflecting the recent changes to my sound signature preferences now that I know the upper treble needs reduced to a certain level.

My ideal sound signature has pretty much the same bass as before, though with less on the upper part of sub-bass. Unlike some here describing the sub-bass as being quite powerful on the FlaresPro, it really doesn't sound like it to me, which since I'm not a bass fan, I prefer that it isn't powerful sounding to me. The majority of the bass, other than sub-bass, I prefer flat/neutral.

The only other change to my ideal sound signature, is to reduce the treble, to avoid sibilance. A flat/neutral treble straight from 500Hz in the mids going directly flat straight through to 10KHz, that line being 5dB above the bass line, but no longer having the treble being 5dB above the mids/10dB above the bass. Basically, I reduced the treble by 5dB.

In attempting to get the graphics equalizer to both reduce the hiss in the FlaresPro, while also getting it to sound close to my sound signature preference. I studied the FlaresPro audio frequency response graph, and created a reverse V-Shape in the graphics equalizer. I did this by adjusting the graphics equalizer in the following specifications :

31Hz is -9
62Hz is -6
125Hz is -3
250Hz is 0
500Hz is 3
1KHz is 3
2 KHz is 0
4KHz is -3
8KHz is -6
16KHz is -9

This eliminated about half of the hiss, without changing too much of the overall sound. Any further modification would have altered the sound too much in a negative way. However, by adding a bit at 500Hz and 1KHz, helped to benefit the sound in conjunction with the equal sound at 2KHz, that made up for the lesser lower treble of the FlaresPro.

While Flare Audio had told me the slight increase of the bass over the mids in the frequency response wasn't a typical showing, but rather an example of how much in a region the FlaresPro (could go), my opinion is that Flare Audio ought to have made sure the mids and the bass were always at least neutral., or better yet - have the mids 5dB above the bass.

Then the important thing in eliminating the hiss, especially easy to accomplish with the mids already 5db above the bass, if Flare Audio tuned it this way, they could simply carry the tuning straight through the remainder in most of the treble, a flat/neutral line through from 500Hz to 10KHz. Then drop the treble lower from there.

By doing this, Flare Audio would have a very evenly, well-layered treble, producing the "live" sound without the hiss/sibilance, and without any sharp spikes or lowly dips in the sound. It would sound more live and detailed not having to compete so much with bass, forcing the engineers to tune with the risk of these bad side effects interfering in the music.

I'm reconsidering my possibly getting the ifi device to help reduce the hiss. I'm first going to send an email to Flare Audio describing the issue and hopefully find out what their opinion of the situation is. Again, I think the problem is in the upper treble region, where Flare Audio was trying to tune for the "live" sound, rather than tuning the lower treble for it.
 
Aug 25, 2017 at 1:59 AM Post #128 of 1,354
Interesting. I wonder if Flare has that much choice in how the extreme highend is tuned? Eventualy a point is reached where a driver no longer works as a piston and it goes into cone break up. It usually resonates in that area. Beryllium is very light and stiff. That raises the frequency of break up but it probably doesn't move it out of the audible range. If this were a 2way speaker the designer would start the crossover an octave below this point and roll the troublesome range off before handing over to the next driver. Can't do that with a full range driver.

I wouldn't call the Flares a V sig. They are no where near violent enough. Maybe a much shallower U. It would be fun to build some IEMs.
 
Aug 25, 2017 at 10:33 AM Post #130 of 1,354
...................................................................................Snip............................................................................................

Then the important thing in eliminating the hiss, especially easy to accomplish with the mids already 5db above the bass, if Flare Audio tuned it this way, they could simply carry the tuning straight through the remainder in most of the treble, a flat/neutral line through from 500Hz to 10KHz. Then drop the treble lower from there.

....................................................................................Snip..............................................................................................

I don't recall ever seeing a measurement of any phone or IEM having a flat line from 500Hz to 10KHz.
 
Aug 25, 2017 at 11:02 AM Post #131 of 1,354
I don't recall ever seeing a measurement of any phone or IEM having a flat line from 500Hz to 10KHz.
Well, I'm using them with the Meridian Explorer2, and I can hear the hiss. Its unfortunate though, because everything else about the FlaresPro is great.

I think the problem may be in the tuning of the higher treble region. According to the graph Flare sent to me, there is a pretty large, extended increase in the upper treble area, whereas companies looking to reduce sibilance but still have plenty of detail and spaciousness tune the lower treble to be increased, while reducing the upper treble.

I know Flare Audio wanted to get a "live" sound out of this, but why tune the area most difficult on sibilance to get that sound. Just tune the lower treble and avoid the hiss, even if its only on certain music. It ruins the whole point of neutrality and in trying to adapt to the natural sound of the music itself.

Flare did such a fantastic job tuning the bass and the vocals on them, but messed with the treble. Its very disappointing.

Question for you, Arysyn.
are you using an MP3 of the song from Enigma, or streaming it on an app? I have the FLAC of the album, and listening to it with Flare R2S on a Pono player, and while there is plenty of "synthetic cymbal" hits, I cant say its hissing for me. There is a lot of reverb on that song, and you can hear it echo, so I'm curious if that's what your hearing, but in a crushed MP3 sort of way that makes it sound like a hiss. As someone else mentioned, the Flares have been the most quiet IEM, let along Headphone I've heard as far as background hiss....I'm thinking your hearing the synthetic cymbal crash that's been crushed by the loudness wars. If that is how the song was produced, why are you looking to change how you hear it? To me your adding color to make it more palatable. I would chose a HP that gave me the warts and all of a song, so I know I'm hearing it the way it was meant to be. If you love it for all other music, except a few songs, to me, the issue is the production of the song. Your chasing your tail if your wanting something that makes every song sound great. There are badly produced songs, and I'm ok with that knowledge. I still listen to Enigma despite the crushed dynamics and synthetic sounds they emanate.
 
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Aug 25, 2017 at 11:16 AM Post #132 of 1,354
I think you guys misunderstood eachother - @Arysyn speaks of hissing as in sibilance / harshness in upper midrange/treble while @barondla speaks of hissing as in background noise.
Flares Pro are very unsensitive to hissing of source/amp (background noise) - just like the old Flares, so the background is usually silent/hiss-free but Flares Pro are prone to sibilance and this can be dealt with by choosing the right source/amp and tips (of course to a degree).
 
Aug 25, 2017 at 1:13 PM Post #133 of 1,354
I don't recall ever seeing a measurement of any phone or IEM having a flat line from 500Hz to 10KHz.

I suggest reading Crinnacle's frequency response graphs here on Head-Fi. Look specifically at the graphs for the V-Sonic GR07 and GR09.

I considered possibly buying one of those, but two issues I read about them were build quality and sibilance. A big part of my thinking regarding audio has changed because of FlaresPro. I know neutrality in bass is a must for me and having a neutral/slightly north of neutral mid vocals also is important to me

Yet, the big change has been in my treble perspective where the lower treble should be elevated above the bass no more than 5dB carrying through the remainder of treble up to 10 KHz. beyond that is where treble ought to drop to avoid sibilance in the same style as I perceive subbass. At the most though, and even treble experience may be okay, but I'll leave it at that, for now.

My revised ideal sound signature preference audio frequency graph has been made, here :

Frequency_2.jpg
 
Aug 25, 2017 at 1:30 PM Post #134 of 1,354
Question for you, Arysyn.
are you using an MP3 of the song from Enigma, or streaming it on an app? I have the FLAC of the album, and listening to it with Flare R2S on a Pono player, and while there is plenty of "synthetic cymbal" hits, I cant say its hissing for me. There is a lot of reverb on that song, and you can hear it echo, so I'm curious if that's what your hearing, but in a crushed MP3 sort of way that makes it sound like a hiss. As someone else mentioned, the Flares have been the most quiet IEM, let along Headphone I've heard as far as background hiss....I'm thinking your hearing the synthetic cymbal crash that's been crushed by the loudness wars. If that is how the song was produced, why are you looking to change how you hear it? To me your adding color to make it more palatable. I would chose a HP that gave me the warts and all of a song, so I know I'm hearing it the way it was meant to be. If you love it for all other music, except a few songs, to me, the issue is the production of the song. Your chasing your tail if your wanting something that makes every song sound great. There are badly produced songs, and I'm ok with that knowledge. I still listen to Enigma despite the crushed dynamics and synthetic sounds they emanate.

Hi rickhawk,

I've listened to the song through my Flac file f it I've had for a while now, and also on Tidal. I've listened to both when I tried the HiFiMan RE800, which despite its flaws that happily the FlaresPro corrected, I never heard any hiss nor sibilance on the Enigma music, nor on Moment of Peace by Gregorian.

Most of the music I listen to is the ambient/ethereal kind like Enigma, Delerium, Schiller, Sleepthief, ConjureOne, Amethystium, etc, along with Epic Trailer Orchestra music like Two Steps From Hell, Thomas Bergersen, and so on... Music where while there isn't always vocals present, when they are - you really want to be able to hear them over all the mystical soundscape surrounding it.

Having any hiss involved is a big problem. Thing is, FlaresPro sounds great in every other way, hits everything so perfectly and flawlessly to exactly what I want, except for where the hiss is present. It isn't in the more bassier Curtains (Myst4 Version) by Peter Gabriel, I surprisingly don't hear it during the more trebly Veni Redemptor Gentium by Paul Schwartz, which that song absolutely requires more bass, in order to get the emotion of the song correct.

Yet, when I get to MOP by Gregorian and ROB by Enigma, there begins the hiss for me. It definitely is present in the cymbal/tambourine-sounding parts to it. That is what I want minimized, which is why I tested with the graphics equalizer. Truly I wasn't trying to color the sound, but to find a way to reduce the loss in quality of certain details and spacing from reducing the upper range in trying to eliminate the hiss. I found I can only get it down halfway with the equalizer, before really seriously changing the sound for the worse.
 
Aug 25, 2017 at 2:12 PM Post #135 of 1,354
Interesting. I wonder if Flare has that much choice in how the extreme highend is tuned? Eventualy a point is reached where a driver no longer works as a piston and it goes into cone break up. It usually resonates in that area. Beryllium is very light and stiff. That raises the frequency of break up but it probably doesn't move it out of the audible range. If this were a 2way speaker the designer would start the crossover an octave below this point and roll the troublesome range off before handing over to the next driver. Can't do that with a full range driver.

I wouldn't call the Flares a V sig. They are no where near violent enough. Maybe a much shallower U. It would be fun to build some IEMs.

barondla,

I ordered the ifi iematch you mentioned. It should arrive on Sunday. I'm going to see if that helps. If it does, expect a glowing review from me soon, as I do love everything else about the FlaresPro, just not the occasional hiss.
 

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