[msing539]

Regarding diminishing returns, I have a different perspective.

There are headphones I enjoy at every price point, from Porta Pros up to Susvara. HD600 is great but it doesn't do what some kilobuck headphones do.

Given the opportunity, I suggest listening outside your budget. Listen to an Elite, Susvara, D9200, 1266, Atrium, LCD-5, etc. Higher headphones do bring something more to the table vs. cheaper ones. Whether or not that difference is enough for you to justify their cost is another story.

 

[Monsterzero]

Mind explaining the differences in your interpretation of the words "Imaging" and "Resolution"?

Imaging, to me, is the ability to distinctly hear and place various musicians within a track. When you get into kilobuck gear often times the image itself takes on a tangible 3D aspect, where you can hear "into" an image.

Also to me, imaging goes hand in hand with separation, moreso than with resolution. Resolution to me is being able to hear a mouse fart in the studio. Often times extremely resolving gear does so at the expense of musicality, for which there is no scientific measuring stick.

As to the equipment, I was playing .flac files directly off my Samsung Galaxy S20 FE, plugged into the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp.

I have no experience with the Fiio so I can't say why the HD800 sounded pretty much the same to you as the HD6xx. I mean you'd be hard pressed to find two headphones from a single company that sound more dissimilar.
Perhaps the low impedance output of the Fiio is to blame?

Any thoughts on pairing the 6XX with a Modius DAC and Lyr Amp?

No experience with either product, sorry.
You do realize that you can get a pre built Bottlehead Crack for about the same cost, right? Check Etsy.

To reiterate my previous post, regardless of the amp and DAC you purchase, the HD6xx is never going to be what you want it to be, a neutral, resolution master.

Given the opportunity, I suggest listening outside your budget. Listen to an Elite, Susvara, D9200, 1266, Atrium, LCD-5, etc. Higher headphones do bring something more to the table vs. cheaper ones. Whether or not that difference is enough for you to justify their cost is another story.

I vehemently disagree. Ignorance is bliss in this hobby. Once something is heard it is impossible to unhear it, and that can ruin music listening if you're not careful. My personal rule of thumb is to never listen to a piece of gear unless I can afford to own it.

A true story: Several years ago, I ran a tour for the Lampizator Amber 3, back when I had my Lampizator Atlantic TRP. We had several Head Fi members take part in the tour. For one unfortunate member, he could no longer enjoy his own system after hearing the Amber, and literally quit the hobby for three years because he couldn't afford to buy one for himself.

 

[LobalWarming]

I spent the day at a headphone shop listening to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to. Likewise, when my O2 amp broke and I had to switch to the SDAC, I didn't notice any change in sound, so I think I'm in the clear with the SDAC, at least when it comes to the 6XX's. That might not be the case if I get different headphones, but like you and others have said, there are some very cheap Amps I can pick up, and I will do so if necessary.



Yeah, so I got to listen to the Focal Clear MG's today. Not the "Focal Clear OG", the MG. The OG version is discontinued and cannot be purchased at the stores near me, so the MG is the only one I can actually try out, and yeah, no, they definitely were not doing it for me. They sounded damn near identical to my 6XX's, I didn't notice any bigger soundstage or anything, just a bit more detail in the bass.


Further down the road, behind the hill, over the mountain, across the ocean, on the other hemisphere.

I was able to get into a store today to try out most of the headphones that have bene recommended to me... please see my thoughts at the end of this reply.



Thank you for the explanation! It went a little over my heard when you started talking about damping the drivers and resonance points, but I got the point that the input impedance of the headphones should be >>> the output impedance of the DAC/Amp they're running off of.



Oh wow, what a remarkable product, the JM Audio headphones. Thank you for mentioning them. I don't even know where to begin to incorporate that into my analysis. I'm over here trying to weigh the pros and cons of the HD800s vs the Arya Organics vs the Focal Clear, and then this handcrafted, made-by-a-guy headphone comes out of left field and apparently is phenomenal? How do I compare it to the others? Where does it stack up against the likes of established "greats" like the HD800s? There's no way I could try these on first, so I don't know how I would ever be able to take that leap of blind faith.



Thank you very much for your clear explanation of this! This helps a lot.

And yeah, Users on Head-Fi and Reddit were both unanimous in their declaration that buying better headphones should be my biggest concern, not replacing the SDAC at this moment.

-------

RESULTS FROM TODAY'S LISTENING AT A STORE:

So, I was able to get into a store today to listen to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to on my SDAC, so that was a good sign.

Unfortunately, this experience today left me feeling more confused and lost that I have felt in years.

I tried listening to: Sennheiser HD800s, Hifiman Arya Organic, Hifiman Edition XS, Focal Clear MG, Denon AH-D5200

To sum it up, I could B.A.R.E.L.Y. notice any difference at all between my 6XX's and the HD800s and Arya Organics. I came to the store expecting a vastly improved soundstage, much greater detail, new sounds/instruments I had never heard before in my songs, etc. Instead, all I got was basically the exact same sound, just less... condensed? Less veiled? More clear? I don't quite know how to articulate it, it was so subtle.

I listened exclusively to the .flac songs that I have, and I did A-B testing over and over and over, replaying a song, replaying a part of a song, replaying a 3-second clip of a song to hear a specific sound, or strum, or gasp, just to see if there were any differences as I rapidly switched back and forth between headphones while keeping things volume-matched, and..... nothing.

The $2500 headphones sounded exactly the same as my $200 ones, just a bit clearer, and a bit less veiled. The sound stage was no bigger at all, all music and instruments were coming from the center of my head (except for the guitar in Snow (Hey Oh), which played outside the right ear in all headphones).

I am at a loss of words. I knew that when I stepped up from the 6XX's to these other models, that I wouldn't be experiencing the same world-changing difference that I experienced when going from $50 childhood headphones to the 6XX's, but I still expected SOME kind of difference that merited the extra $2300 in expense, and there was just... nothing.

Am I missing something here?

HD 800s - Nice and clear, with a focus on the mids and trebles.
Arya Organic - Equally as clear as the HD800s, but with a bit less mids, an a bit more bass an subbase.
Focal Clear MG - A bit clearer than my 6XX's, but with an equally closed-sounding soundstage as the 6XX's, and a poor fit for my ears.
Denon AH-D5200 - Stronger base and trebles than the others, as to be expected from the more "U" shaped profile, but overall less detailed. Didn't sound any more detailed than my 6XX's.
My 6XX's - Individual sounds and instruments and words sounded just as good as on the HD800s or the Arya Organics, but slightly "condensed", or "muffled", or like they were being said from 20 feet down in a tunnel.

I haven't felt this lost in years. I have no idea what to do now. I really, truly, heard almost no difference in this testing. Only the HD800s and the Arya Organics sounded any better than my 6XX's, and the only way in which they sounded better was that they sounded a bit clearer, like some muffling had been removed. The Arya Organic's had better base than the HD800's, but once I added a bit of bass to the 800's with an EQ, they sounded identical to the Organics.


Guys. I'm so lost. Please help.

First bit of advise... DON'T WORRY!

Personal audio is very personal. It's about personal listening pleasure, not trying to align one's perceptions with a bunch of internet chatter.

The consensus about upgrading phones before an amp is about as valuable as the electrons spend reading the verdict.

Trust your ears, your perceptions. Your opinion is the only one that counts when spending your time and money. Our opinions are mainly background noise.

My 2 cents (CDN) opinion... would be to purchase a Schiit Vali 3+ or used Vali 2++. Invest in a couple good NOS tubes, WE 396A, RCA Command, GE 5-star 5670. Then spend a few months listening to the 650/Vali and tube combo. Or a used Lyr3 and some NOS 6SN7s / 6J5s and adapters.

If you feel you're still hankering for a different presentation from phones... then consider the Arya Stealth (prefer it to the Organic - for the money and tonal balance). Want a more neutral, detailed presentation, there's the Neumann NDH-30 ($900ish CDN) or even the Senn Pro 490 ($500ish CDN). The HD800/800S are are better deal used and always some available somewhere.

Since you're an SDACer, you might want to contact @Hyde00 who is Canada's chief SDAC advocate. Amps with a Lyr 3 or a Solstice. And big brutal bass canon phones.

My other piece of useless advise is... take your time... listen and enjoy. The personal audio hamster race, the FOMO of Head-Fi/internet hype is great for business, but audio nervosa rarely leads to audio contentment.

 

[msing539]

I vehemently disagree. Ignorance is bliss in this hobby. Once something is heard it is impossible to unhear it, and that can ruin music listening if you're not careful.

Ignorance is absolutely bliss. But if someone doesn't love an HD6XX, we wouldn't want them to think that things only get marginally better when you move up. Things can get preferentially and exponentially better. And without hearing everything you can, how would you find your preferred sound or headphone? Opinions from others only take you so far.

 

[Hyde00]

I spent the day at a headphone shop listening to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to. Likewise, when my O2 amp broke and I had to switch to the SDAC, I didn't notice any change in sound, so I think I'm in the clear with the SDAC, at least when it comes to the 6XX's. That might not be the case if I get different headphones, but like you and others have said, there are some very cheap Amps I can pick up, and I will do so if necessary.



Yeah, so I got to listen to the Focal Clear MG's today. Not the "Focal Clear OG", the MG. The OG version is discontinued and cannot be purchased at the stores near me, so the MG is the only one I can actually try out, and yeah, no, they definitely were not doing it for me. They sounded damn near identical to my 6XX's, I didn't notice any bigger soundstage or anything, just a bit more detail in the bass.


Further down the road, behind the hill, over the mountain, across the ocean, on the other hemisphere.

I was able to get into a store today to try out most of the headphones that have bene recommended to me... please see my thoughts at the end of this reply.



Thank you for the explanation! It went a little over my heard when you started talking about damping the drivers and resonance points, but I got the point that the input impedance of the headphones should be >>> the output impedance of the DAC/Amp they're running off of.



Oh wow, what a remarkable product, the JM Audio headphones. Thank you for mentioning them. I don't even know where to begin to incorporate that into my analysis. I'm over here trying to weigh the pros and cons of the HD800s vs the Arya Organics vs the Focal Clear, and then this handcrafted, made-by-a-guy headphone comes out of left field and apparently is phenomenal? How do I compare it to the others? Where does it stack up against the likes of established "greats" like the HD800s? There's no way I could try these on first, so I don't know how I would ever be able to take that leap of blind faith.



Thank you very much for your clear explanation of this! This helps a lot.

And yeah, Users on Head-Fi and Reddit were both unanimous in their declaration that buying better headphones should be my biggest concern, not replacing the SDAC at this moment.

-------

RESULTS FROM TODAY'S LISTENING AT A STORE:

So, I was able to get into a store today to listen to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to on my SDAC, so that was a good sign.

Unfortunately, this experience today left me feeling more confused and lost that I have felt in years.

I tried listening to: Sennheiser HD800s, Hifiman Arya Organic, Hifiman Edition XS, Focal Clear MG, Denon AH-D5200

To sum it up, I could B.A.R.E.L.Y. notice any difference at all between my 6XX's and the HD800s and Arya Organics. I came to the store expecting a vastly improved soundstage, much greater detail, new sounds/instruments I had never heard before in my songs, etc. Instead, all I got was basically the exact same sound, just less... condensed? Less veiled? More clear? I don't quite know how to articulate it, it was so subtle.

I listened exclusively to the .flac songs that I have, and I did A-B testing over and over and over, replaying a song, replaying a part of a song, replaying a 3-second clip of a song to hear a specific sound, or strum, or gasp, just to see if there were any differences as I rapidly switched back and forth between headphones while keeping things volume-matched, and..... nothing.

The $2500 headphones sounded exactly the same as my $200 ones, just a bit clearer, and a bit less veiled. The sound stage was no bigger at all, all music and instruments were coming from the center of my head (except for the guitar in Snow (Hey Oh), which played outside the right ear in all headphones).

I am at a loss of words. I knew that when I stepped up from the 6XX's to these other models, that I wouldn't be experiencing the same world-changing difference that I experienced when going from $50 childhood headphones to the 6XX's, but I still expected SOME kind of difference that merited the extra $2300 in expense, and there was just... nothing.

Am I missing something here?

HD 800s - Nice and clear, with a focus on the mids and trebles.
Arya Organic - Equally as clear as the HD800s, but with a bit less mids, an a bit more bass an subbase.
Focal Clear MG - A bit clearer than my 6XX's, but with an equally closed-sounding soundstage as the 6XX's, and a poor fit for my ears.
Denon AH-D5200 - Stronger base and trebles than the others, as to be expected from the more "U" shaped profile, but overall less detailed. Didn't sound any more detailed than my 6XX's.
My 6XX's - Individual sounds and instruments and words sounded just as good as on the HD800s or the Arya Organics, but slightly "condensed", or "muffled", or like they were being said from 20 feet down in a tunnel.

I haven't felt this lost in years. I have no idea what to do now. I really, truly, heard almost no difference in this testing. Only the HD800s and the Arya Organics sounded any better than my 6XX's, and the only way in which they sounded better was that they sounded a bit clearer, like some muffling had been removed. The Arya Organic's had better base than the HD800's, but once I added a bit of bass to the 800's with an EQ, they sounded identical to the Organics.


Guys. I'm so lost. Please help.

First bit of advise... DON'T WORRY!

Personal audio is very personal. It's about personal listening pleasure, not trying to align one's perceptions with a bunch of internet chatter.

The consensus about upgrading phones before an amp is about as valuable as the electrons spend reading the verdict.

Trust your ears, your perceptions. Your opinion is the only one that counts when spending your time and money. Our opinions are mainly background noise.

My 2 cents (CDN) opinion... would be to purchase a Schiit Vali 3+ or used Vali 2++. Invest in a couple good NOS tubes, WE 396A, RCA Command, GE 5-star 5670. Then spend a few months listening to the 650/Vali and tube combo. Or a used Lyr3 and some NOS 6SN7s / 6J5s and adapters.

If you feel you're still hankering for a different presentation from phones... then consider the Arya Stealth (prefer it to the Organic - for the money and tonal balance). Want a more neutral, detailed presentation, there's the Neumann NDH-30 ($900ish CDN) or even the Senn Pro 490 ($500ish CDN). The HD800/800S are are better deal used and always some available somewhere.

Since you're an SDACer, you might want to contact @Hyde00 who is Canada's chief SDAC advocate. Amps with a Lyr 3 or a Solstice. And big brutal bass canon phones.

My other piece of useless advise is... take your time... listen and enjoy. The personal audio hamster race, the FOMO of Head-Fi/internet hype is great for business, but audio nervosa rarely leads to audio contentment.

Yes I have seen the SDAC summoning light in the sky!

SDAC users unite!

lol jokes aside, I will give you a proper response later tonight when my wife and son stop bugging me every 5 minutes about how his Lego won't snap together.

 

[Monsterzero]

Ignorance is absolutely bliss. But if someone doesn't love an HD6XX, we wouldn't want them to think that things only get marginally better when you move up. Things can get preferentially and exponentially better. And without hearing everything you can, how would you find your preferred sound or headphone? Opinions from others only take you so far.

You're correct. I think the reason why the 6xx is still highly regarded is because it's relatively inexpensive. What many newcomers do not realize is that 99% of this hobby is personal preference and system synergy.

Every headphone needs the correct upstream gear to shine,and when paired with the right dac and amp, the 6xx can be end game

 

[msing539]

You're correct. I think the reason why the 6xx is still highly regarded is because it's relatively inexpensive. What many newcomers do not realize is that 99% of this hobby is personal preference and system synergy.

Every headphone needs the correct upstream gear to shine,and when paired with the right dac and amlt, the 6xx can be end game

We are in complete agreement. Let us celebrate with the perusal and purchasing of new gear to commemorate this momentous occasion.

 

[Shane D]

Hello everyone,

I recently made a post Here and on Reddit where I was asking about how to recreate the wonderful auditory experience I had at a music store years ago.
Those two threads brought in a lot of people who were in near-consensus about one thing: I need better headphones, not better audio gear.

I currently have a pair of Sennheiser HD 6XX's, running off a Grace SDAC. I did months of research before eventually settling on the Senn's. I watched tons of video reviews, read lots of articles and reviews, made forum posts and read threads on Head-Fi, and my understanding back then was that the 6XX's were pretty much the best headphones money could buy at that price range ($200 USD), and even well above it.

Best headphones in the world? No, of course not, but I saw MANY claims that the related HD 650's were the best headphones under $1000, in terms of neutrality, detail, and, surprisingly, sound stage, and that the HD 6XX's were basically the same, just tuned to be a little less neutral.

Now, though, it seems that everywhere I go and everywhere the 6XX's are mentioned, it gets chided as being a bad set of headphones, surpassed by a dozen others. Some go so far as to say "Literally anything feels less claustrophobic than the 600 series"

I don't really get where this seeming reversal of public opinion came from in recent years, but it's beside the point of this thread.

--

You have all convinced me that I would be much better off putting my money into a better set of headphones, instead of buying a better DAC/Amp combo.

The question then becomes "Well, which headphones do I buy?"

That discussion has lead to people saying "there's really not a lot of options at the $700-1000 USD price range. It's a bit of a desert on the headphone ladder."

Because of this back-and-forth, this one person says one thing, another person says the exact opposite, I'm feeling kinda lost.

The three characteristics I look for in a pair of headphones are, in order of importance:

1) Resolution / Detail / Imaging -- I want to hear every pluck of a string, ever breath of air, every sound there is.
2) A large sound stage -- I know this is considered overrated by some, but it's extremely important to me. I can't explain why, it's just what makes music enjoyable for me. And please don't say "just get speakers". I know, I'm working on that too. This thread is specifically for headphones.
3) Neutrality -- I want to hear music the way the artist intended. I don't want tons of bass, don't want screeching trebles, just want faithful reproduction.

Are there any headphones that meet these requirements, that can be purchased, new, for around $700-1000 USD? The only recommendations I've gotten are things like the Focal Clear's, at $1500, and the Sennheiser HD 800s for $1600, which are both way over my budget.

So, are there any options, or should I really just keep saving for another several years until I can get one of those pairs?

I haven't read the whole thread, but I thought I would jump in directly replying to your post.

First off, I owned the HD6XX's twice and didn't care for them, nor pretty much any Sennheisers. Until I found the HD660S2's.

My favourite headphone is the OG Focal Clear's, which are selling for $880.00. and the Elex's are 90% or more of that for $399.00.

My top four are all under $1,000.00:
1) Focal Clear (OG)
2) HD660S2 (with foam filters removed)
3) Grado GH2's
4) HiFiman HE6se V2's

I recently bought the FiiO FT5's and they are great bang for the buck.

I also just traded for an older set of Arya's and they will be here Monday.

IMO, there are lots of very good headphones under $1K. Happy hunting!

 

[Hyde00]

I'm back!

I've tried to skim through all 4 pages, so I could've missed some stuff but oh well, such is life LOL.

You're from Canada right? Where about are you from? If you're in Toronto I can give you some recommendations.

Also please list your budget so we can pinpoint how much we can spend exactly lol. For now we'll give you ballpark recommendations.

You have all convinced me that I would be much better off putting my money into a better set of headphones, instead of buying a better DAC/Amp combo.

Reddit is a neverending stream of users parroting around headphone recommendations. It's easy to say the HD6XX is the best, but very few people have heard everything even under that price point. Some of us here are on Reddit... I'm on Reddit. As soon as you put forward a recommendation outside the norm, it quickly becomes unpopular. That makes it hard to ask questions over there and get meaningful answers, in my opinion.

Oh god you've asked Reddit, I have Reddit account too but it's turning into ASR. Basically loud enough = good. Which is not true.

Please listen to headphone with your ears.
Please listen to headphone with your ears.
Please listen to headphone with your ears.

(VERY IMPORTANT)

Yes headphone is most important but amp and dac are important too.

You are as strong as your weakest link.

Everything need to work together in unison.

1) Resolution / Detail / Imaging -- I want to hear every pluck of a string, ever breath of air, every sound there is.

2) A large sound stage -- I know this is considered overrated by some, but it's extremely important to me. I can't explain why, it's just what makes music enjoyable for me. And please don't say "just get speakers". I know, I'm working on that too. This thread is specifically for headphones.

Hmmmm there's more to it but generally I find pronounced treble tend to give you perceived larger soundstage and better details.

Bass tend to make things sound "hazy" as bass sound are generally more omni-directional.

Not telling you to buy a bright headphone but coincidently HD800S is a wide sounding headphone with great details that happens to be........ bright...... lol.

Same with DACs that are airy and wide sounding tend to be a bit....... bright. More on that later.

3) Neutrality -- I want to hear music the way the artist intended. I don't want tons of bass, don't want screeching trebles, just want faithful reproduction.

HD6XX actually isn't neutral, it's a bit warm sounding and treble rolled off also not very wide.

Not sure how much your budget is but HD800S might be closest to what you're looking for.

If you can't afford that budget maybe look into AKG K7XX or Audio Technica AD900X or Beyer DT880.

Though I don't like voices on AKG headphones LOL. I'd actually pick Audio Technica.

Not OP but I used an SDAC for a while, It has a 3.5mm out on the back, idk that I'd call it a headphone out but you can plug headphones into it and it will work. But yeah it will require digital volume control. Also a big drawback is that the output impedance of that 3.5mm out on the SDAC is 150 ohm so unless you're working with a high-z headphone it can make the bass get very sloppy. Grab a closeout Schiit Magni+ or Heretic for $59 imo.

So the 3.5 mm out on SDAC is actually line out, line out is not the same as headphone out.

I forgot the exact science but something about line out lacks the current of voltage to drive the headphone, you need an amp to amp up the signal to drive headphone properly.

That and the RCA out also sounds better than the 3.5 mm out.

So please get an amp LOL.

But SDAC as a DAC is fine, actually I'm still using SDAC now even as we speak. And I've tried a few DACs up to the $1000 mark (right now I have Bifrost 2 sitting next to my SDAC LOL), but I'm still listening to SDAC LOL.



I'd not worry about SDAC for now, keep using it.

I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp.

To sum it up, I could B.A.R.E.L.Y. notice any difference at all between my 6XX's and the HD800s and Arya Organics. I came to the store expecting a vastly improved soundstage, much greater detail, new sounds/instruments I had never heard before in my songs, etc. Instead, all I got was basically the exact same sound, just less... condensed? Less veiled? More clear? I don't quite know how to articulate it, it was so subtle.

UHHHHH here is where I'm gonna differ from Reddit. Reddit would probably tell you K7 is fine. But I find K7 sound really......... meh (sorry)......... when I tried..... LOL.

I actually have a strong suspicion that is actually what's holding you back. Ok some more example:

Hifiman R7DX = very easy to drive, sounds good on low power gear, but doesn't scale much.
D5200 = sounds good on anything, scale well.
TH900 = very very source picky, but can scale really high.

I tried Dragonfly Red on the TH900 once and I find it limited its potential and sounded "meh". And Dragonfly Red was my favourite dongle for the longest time before I got SDAC.

This goes back to the "you're as strong as your weakest link".

If your DAC/Amp does not match the level of your headphone it will hold back its potential.

HD 800s - Nice and clear, with a focus on the mids and trebles.
Arya Organic - Equally as clear as the HD800s, but with a bit less mids, an a bit more bass an subbase.
Focal Clear MG - A bit clearer than my 6XX's, but with an equally closed-sounding soundstage as the 6XX's, and a poor fit for my ears.
Denon AH-D5200 - Stronger base and trebles than the others, as to be expected from the more "U" shaped profile, but overall less detailed. Didn't sound any more detailed than my 6XX's.
My 6XX's - Individual sounds and instruments and words sounded just as good as on the HD800s or the Arya Organics, but slightly "condensed", or "muffled", or like they were being said from 20 feet down in a tunnel.

HD800S = I still think this is probably your best choice, but you need DAC/Amp that can bring out that potential.
Arya Organic = Never heard it, no clue lol.
Focal Clear MG = Focal generally are also not very wide sounding.
Denon AH-D5200 = This is a closed back headphone, naturally will not as wide as open back. I did own this for a few years, I really like it otherwise lol.
HD6XX = HD6XX is also not known to be very wide.

I haven't felt this lost in years.

This is me everytime I try to "upgrade" and spend 4x the cost and only to go back to my old gear LOL.

There is technicality, and there is tonal preference.

A lot of the time things get technically better but tonally worse.

HD650/6xx can be a great sounding headphone with the right gear.

This, ideally you want tube amp to bring out their potential. Though tube amps are generally not that neutral LOL.

As good as the HD650 can be in the right setup, they will never be the best headphones for the above criteria.

1. they have excellent imaging, but they are not the final word in resolution.
2. The have one of the smallest stages i've heard.
3. Neutral they are not. They lean warm and have a midbass hump.

LOL basically this.

Diminishing returns are very real.

I always say you need to spend double the cost to get a little bit better. Also the difference gets smaller and smaller as you go higher in price.

The first few jumps you'll probably notice a huge difference in sound quality. But the last few jumps you're probably looking at 5% better each jump.

First bit of advise... DON'T WORRY!

Personal audio is very personal. It's about personal listening pleasure, not trying to align one's perceptions with a bunch of internet chatter.

Basically this, sometimes people might steer you in other direction. But you need to figure out what's right for you.

Listen with your own ear.

Oh forgot to say, I find amp makes a huge difference too. Not sure what your budget is, but my Lyr 3 gets PRETTY WIDE. But it's also not cheap.

For your preference I suspect Schiit Midgard might be a good option. Or even the new Vali 3.

But if budget allows them Lyr+ or Lyr 3 might be more ideal.

Anyway, it's getting late and I'm rambling on and I don't even know what I'm writing anymore.

Please state your budget and I'll find something for you, thanks!

 

[HiFiWar]

Hello everyone,

I recently made a post Here and on Reddit where I was asking about how to recreate the wonderful auditory experience I had at a music store years ago.
Those two threads brought in a lot of people who were in near-consensus about one thing: I need better headphones, not better audio gear.

I currently have a pair of Sennheiser HD 6XX's, running off a Grace SDAC. I did months of research before eventually settling on the Senn's. I watched tons of video reviews, read lots of articles and reviews, made forum posts and read threads on Head-Fi, and my understanding back then was that the 6XX's were pretty much the best headphones money could buy at that price range ($200 USD), and even well above it.

Best headphones in the world? No, of course not, but I saw MANY claims that the related HD 650's were the best headphones under $1000, in terms of neutrality, detail, and, surprisingly, sound stage, and that the HD 6XX's were basically the same, just tuned to be a little less neutral.

Now, though, it seems that everywhere I go and everywhere the 6XX's are mentioned, it gets chided as being a bad set of headphones, surpassed by a dozen others. Some go so far as to say "Literally anything feels less claustrophobic than the 600 series"

I don't really get where this seeming reversal of public opinion came from in recent years, but it's beside the point of this thread.

--

You have all convinced me that I would be much better off putting my money into a better set of headphones, instead of buying a better DAC/Amp combo.

The question then becomes "Well, which headphones do I buy?"

That discussion has lead to people saying "there's really not a lot of options at the $700-1000 USD price range. It's a bit of a desert on the headphone ladder."

Because of this back-and-forth, this one person says one thing, another person says the exact opposite, I'm feeling kinda lost.

The three characteristics I look for in a pair of headphones are, in order of importance:

1) Resolution / Detail / Imaging -- I want to hear every pluck of a string, ever breath of air, every sound there is.
2) A large sound stage -- I know this is considered overrated by some, but it's extremely important to me. I can't explain why, it's just what makes music enjoyable for me. And please don't say "just get speakers". I know, I'm working on that too. This thread is specifically for headphones.
3) Neutrality -- I want to hear music the way the artist intended. I don't want tons of bass, don't want screeching trebles, just want faithful reproduction.

Are there any headphones that meet these requirements, that can be purchased, new, for around $700-1000 USD? The only recommendations I've gotten are things like the Focal Clear's, at $1500, and the Sennheiser HD 800s for $1600, which are both way over my budget.

So, are there any options, or should I really just keep saving for another several years until I can get one of those pairs?

Easy, Hifiman Arya V2. JMA XTC. Beyer T1. Philphone. Focal Clear - they're only $7-800. I have a set of hd 800s for $1100, not 1600. Anyway, there's lots of options

 

[preauxtip]

So the 3.5 mm out on SDAC is actually line out, line out is not the same as headphone out.

I forgot the exact science but something about line out lacks the current of voltage to drive the headphone, you need an amp to amp up the signal to drive headphone properly.

That and the RCA out also sounds better than the 3.5 mm out.

We're getting pretty off topic at this point but it is a fun discussion. While we're definitely in agreement that the SDAC 3.5mm out is not a good solution to power the headphones directly, interestingly enough the HD6xx is one of the few options that can actually be driven decently enough from it.

The line out stage of the SDAC is good for 2v of output which given the 103db/Vrms sensitivity of the HD6xx means you're good for 110db of output, meanwhile because of the high impedance it will only require 7.5mA of current to do so which I don't know that the SDAC can output that (I gave mine away a couple weeks ago so I can't test it either) but that's a miniscule amount of current and I'd imagine it's able to provide it. Another benefit of high impedance on the 6xx is that it will not be as affected by the high output impedance of the line out stage causing a modified frequency response or an improperly damped driver.

All this said I still think OP should buy an actual amp. My personal favorite flavor with the 6xx is an OTL tube amp or a Piety but they are just that, personal favorites and not for everyone.

 

[Hyde00]

All this said I still think OP should buy an actual amp. My personal favorite flavor with the 6xx is an OTL tube amp or a Piety but they are just that, personal favorites and not for everyone.

Yeah I even tried to use a wire that converts 3.5 mm to RCA, to feed to the same amp. Then later switch to the regular RCA out, to feed the same amp.

Example:

3.5 mm to RCA cable -> feed to my Lyr 3
RCA out -> feed to my Lyr 3

And the RCA out still sounds better, not sure why. Theoretically should be identical but somehow RCA out sounds better.

But either case I do agree he should still buy an amp, I was mainly explaining that as long he uses the RCA out, I think SDAC is "good enough" for now that he doesn't need to worry about upgrading DAC yet.

And yes HD6XX + Piety has been referred as an amazing combination, tricky part is that the OP wanted something clean and clear and neutral.

That's why I suggest he get HD800S instead.

Though at this point he hasn't replied in a while, so I feel like everyone else is more invested than him LOL.

EDIT: Also now that I re-read again, maybe I could've shorten that last article I wrote.

Note to self, don't rush writing thing in the middle of the night right before sleep.

 

[moneypit]

Though at this point he hasn't replied in a while, so I feel like everyone else is more invested than him LOL.

OP hasn't been active for two days in his Reddit post that he started at the same time. Maybe he is camping out at the headphone store.

I don't think he said it in this thread but he did say over there that he wants whatever he buys to last a lifetime. I'm not sure that is realistic depending on what he considers 'lifetime.' Given that, lots of us own Senns from 20-30 years ago and all they need are occasional pad/headband swaps.

I also said before that it looks like he wants the HD800s but is having a difficult time with fitting the price into his budget. There is a ticking clock (in his mind) because of the current sale price.

 

[Hyde00]

Maybe he is camping out at the headphone store.

I don't think he said it in this thread but he did say over there that he wants whatever he buys to last a lifetime. I'm not sure that is realistic depending on what he considers 'lifetime.' Given that, lots of us own Senns from 20-30 years ago and all they need are occasional pad/headband swaps.

Last a life time is tricky, taste change over time.

Though most Sennheiser products as you said, as long you can change the pad from time to time then it does last a long time.

I also said before that it looks like he wants the HD800s but is having a difficult time with fitting the price into his budget. There is a ticking clock (in his mind) because of the current sale price.

It's the classic, do you spend the money once and buy the best one, or you slowly work your way toward the best one.

Though considering he already has HD6XX so it's not too far fetched to jump into HD800S next.

But it is a big price jump though.

 

[moneypit]

I'm hoping we get an update. OP has more updates over there having gone to a different store. Meze 109 Pros are now in the mix. I won't steal his thunder but I find his observations fascinating.

I guess he likes their feedback more than what he has received over here.