[TyTB]

You know, it reminds me of DMS's review of the Sennheiser HE-1 (59,000 Euro headphone system), saying something like "It's the ultimate HD 650" (I could be misremembering). For decades now people have been trying to find an upgrade from the HD 650, with only moderate levels of success, and almost always wayyyy more money. You started with such a good value headphone, it's hard to appreciate something that does almost the same as it does but for much more money. I feel you!

The 800S gave me the same feeling when I first heard them. When people talked about a "vast" soundstage, it inspired more imagination than the real thing could bring. I've come to learn that for myself, that "vastness" is very track and chain-dependent. The reality is headphones will never sound like speakers. If you want that speaker-like sound, get speakers, and don't even mess with headphones anymore.

But if you're like me and you don't want to annoy the people living near you, you can enjoy headphones for what they are. Not super expansive, but with an intimacy that should really be treated as its own experience. I'd say stick with the 6XX for now (not spending $2300 is GREAT!) and keep finding ways to listen to different setups and different headphones. You might conclude, like many have, that the 6XX is all you need. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Thank you for your comment. Normally, I would be much more relaxed with all this stuff, knowing that these products are always here, I can always purchase them if I change my mind.

The problem is, the HD800's are on sale from $2399 CAD all the way down to $1599 CAD, but only until March 28th. The same is true of some Hifiman stuff, the Arya Stealth is down from $1599 to $759 USD, again only until the end of March.

This time-rush is what's making me feel so much pressure, because I already can't afford $1599 CAD, but I REALLY can't afford $2399. If I don't take advantage of this pricing now, I probably will never own either of these headphones.

This is why I'm a bit more reluctant to just abandon this whole quest and line of research in favour of just sticking with my 6XX's or getting a better DAC/Amp (which apparently won't do anything to improve my sound quality either...)

And yeah, speakers are unfortunately not something I will ever be able to own. I do not own a house, and most likely never will be able to, so it's headphones 4 life.

 

[moneypit]

I've never listened to the 6xx but was comparing my 580s to the OG. The soundstage isn't as wide as I'd like but it is wider than the Sennheiser. It is also significantly clearer at lower volumes and I find that I am listening to the Clears at a lower volume.

What music were you using to compare? It could be the recording that is affecting your observations. RHCP is well-known for having recordings being victims of the loudness wars with a lot of compression. Not sure if that affects soundstage or not but using recordings known for being mastered well may help in your comparisons.

On the flip side, I also have AKG K701s (currently down until I can repair them) and sometimes the soundstage is too big. You could always buy a set of those. They are cheaper than anything on your list. They lack bass but that wasn't a priority on your list.

 

[TyTB]

How loud would you say you were listening to all these different headphones?

Loud. I have mild tinnitus, but still, I listened to these headphones and tracks at volumes above what I normally ever would, because I didn't want to miss any detail. In that regard, it was great. Even my 6XX's sounded a lot better when the volume was cranked beyond what I normally listen to. I did also try lowering the volume to my usual levels multiple times, but would lose some of the quieter detail when doing so, so I kept things fairly loud for the duration of the testing.

I don't think you sound lost, you sound like you know exactly what you experienced and what you like. If anything it sounds like you're trying to justify why those headphones are $2000 and yours are only $200 and struggling to do so and I would suggest just not trying to do that. Also you're talking about the 6xx which is one of the best bang for buck headphones out there, it's trading blows for a reason.

It just... it seems incredulous. Like, we all know that audiophiles can get lost up their own bum a little bit, so I always took reviews with a healthy serving of salt, knowing that when people rave about the "incredible soundstage" of the 800s and such, it would never sound like speakers. And I knew that the step up from the 6XX's to the 800s would be much smaller than the step up from childhood headphones to the 6XX's, but still, I expected SOME kind of substantial improvement. I didn't think the community would make SUCH a mountain out of SUCH a small mole-hill. Make SUCH a grand claim of quality and superb listening off of SUCH a small improvement.

Like, I would doubt my own senses before I would doubt the combined senses and intelligence of the hundreds of people who participate on these forums, and the dozens of reviewers across dozens of websites who review these headphones. SURELY there must be something wrong with my ears or with my testing or with my music, right?? This many people can't ALL be making such a big claim over nothing, right???

I've never listened to the 6xx but was comparing my 580s to the OG. The soundstage isn't as wide as I'd like but it is wider than the Sennheiser. It is also significantly clearer at lower volumes and I find that I am listening to the Clears at a lower volume.

What music were you using to compare? It could be the recording that is affecting your observations. RHCP is well-known for having recordings being victims of the loudness wars with a lot of compression. Not sure if that affects soundstage or not but using recordings known for being mastered well may help in your comparisons.

On the flip side, I also have AKG K701s (currently down until I can repair them) and sometimes the soundstage is too big. You could always buy a set of those. They are cheaper than anything on your list. They lack bass but that wasn't a priority on your list.

I listened to .flac files from a variety of different artists, in a variety of genres. Everything from Chopin's Raindrops, to "Life Itself" by Glass Animals, to "Goliath" by Woodkid, to "Engravings" by Ethan Bortnik.

 

[moneypit]

Loud. I have mild tinnitus, but still, I listened to these headphones and tracks at volumes above what I normally ever would, because I didn't want to miss any detail. In that regard, it was great. Even my 6XX's sounded a lot better when the volume was cranked beyond what I normally listen to. I did also try lowering the volume to my usual levels multiple times, but would lose some of the quieter detail when doing so, so I kept things fairly loud for the duration of the testing.

That might be part of the issue, as well. You want to be able to hear all the details at lower levels. Your brain is going to equate louder to better. Short of clipping, most headphones sound good at high volume.

 

[haasaaroni]

This time-rush is what's making me feel so much pressure, because I already can't afford $1599 CAD, but I REALLY can't afford $2399. If I don't take advantage of this pricing now, I probably will never own either of these headphones.

Don’t let sales rush you into spending a ton of money on something you don’t want or need. We all learn and grow in this hobby at our own pace, and I promise, the sales will come again!

 

[msing539]

Loud. I have mild tinnitus, but still, I listened to these headphones and tracks at volumes above what I normally ever would, because I didn't want to miss any detail. In that regard, it was great. Even my 6XX's sounded a lot better when the volume was cranked beyond what I normally listen to. I did also try lowering the volume to my usual levels multiple times, but would lose some of the quieter detail when doing so, so I kept things fairly loud for the duration of the testing.

For your particular case of listening at lower volume, try a higher end Grado.

 

[TyTB]

That might be part of the issue, as well. You want to be able to hear all the details at lower levels. Your brain is going to equate louder to better. Short of clipping, most headphones sound good at high volume.

This is why I also made sure to drop the volume to my normal levels on a few different songs. When lowered, the detail in the highs was lost across all of the headphones, as was the subbase, but the relative differences between the headphones stayed exactly the same. The HD800s and Arya Organics were still clearer and less veiled than the 6XXs, but only a bit.

 

[moneypit]

Ok, here is my suggestion...

Go back to the store. Listen to the highest-end/most expensive TOTL headphones you can with the same equipment and music as last time. See if you like any of those. Based on what you've observed, I'm going to guess you won't. More money doesn't always mean better SQ and there's always diminishing returns.

I went back and re-read your store notes. It sounds like you want the 800s but don't see the incremental improvement worth the cost of entry. That is a completely valid perspective. Your money, your decision.

Listen to more affordable options, too. I recommend the 701 and they are under $200US on Amazon. Soundstage for days.

 

[spittis]

RESULTS FROM TODAY'S LISTENING AT A STORE:

So, I was able to get into a store today to listen to some of the recommendations I've been getting, such as the HD800s, Arya Organics, Focal Clear MG, etc. I was playing songs off my phone, through the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp. I brought my 6XX's with me, and they sounded exactly the same on the FiiO amp as I was used to on my SDAC, so that was a good sign.

Unfortunately, this experience today left me feeling more confused and lost that I have felt in years.

I tried listening to: Sennheiser HD800s, Hifiman Arya Organic, Hifiman Edition XS, Focal Clear MG, Denon AH-D5200

To sum it up, I could B.A.R.E.L.Y. notice any difference at all between my 6XX's and the HD800s and Arya Organics. I came to the store expecting a vastly improved soundstage, much greater detail, new sounds/instruments I had never heard before in my songs, etc. Instead, all I got was basically the exact same sound, just less... condensed? Less veiled? More clear? I don't quite know how to articulate it, it was so subtle.

I listened exclusively to the .flac songs that I have, and I did A-B testing over and over and over, replaying a song, replaying a part of a song, replaying a 3-second clip of a song to hear a specific sound, or strum, or gasp, just to see if there were any differences as I rapidly switched back and forth between headphones while keeping things volume-matched, and..... nothing.

The $2500 headphones sounded exactly the same as my $200 ones, just a bit clearer, and a bit less veiled. The sound stage was no bigger at all, all music and instruments were coming from the center of my head (except for the guitar in Snow (Hey Oh), which played outside the right ear in all headphones).

I am at a loss of words. I knew that when I stepped up from the 6XX's to these other models, that I wouldn't be experiencing the same world-changing difference that I experienced when going from $50 childhood headphones to the 6XX's, but I still expected SOME kind of difference that merited the extra $2300 in expense, and there was just... nothing.

Am I missing something here?

HD 800s - Nice and clear, with a focus on the mids and trebles.
Arya Organic - Equally as clear as the HD800s, but with a bit less mids, an a bit more bass an subbase.
Focal Clear MG - A bit clearer than my 6XX's, but with an equally closed-sounding soundstage as the 6XX's, and a poor fit for my ears.
Denon AH-D5200 - Stronger base and trebles than the others, as to be expected from the more "U" shaped profile, but overall less detailed. Didn't sound any more detailed than my 6XX's.
My 6XX's - Individual sounds and instruments and words sounded just as good as on the HD800s or the Arya Organics, but slightly "condensed", or "muffled", or like they were being said from 20 feet down in a tunnel.

I haven't felt this lost in years. I have no idea what to do now. I really, truly, heard almost no difference in this testing. Only the HD800s and the Arya Organics sounded any better than my 6XX's, and the only way in which they sounded better was that they sounded a bit clearer, like some muffling had been removed. The Arya Organic's had better base than the HD800's, but once I added a bit of bass to the 800's with an EQ, they sounded identical to the Organics.


Guys. I'm so lost. Please help.

My thoughts on this - you have probably read a lot of impressions from other people regarding how these headphones sound online. You have set your expectations on how big differences there should be based on that. The truth is, that when you get to the 6XX level and go beyond, you hit serious diminishing returns in sound quality increase. The higher up the ladder you go, the more it starts being about small nuances that completely come down to taste, and frankly may require you to train your listening habits a bit to be a better critical listener. I'd argue many people aren't even interested in being better critical listeners, and that's fine.

I always say that I personally think the price to performance sweetspot for headphones is somewhere arouns HD600/650/6XX/Sundara territory. You are very honest about how you perceive things, that's good and will save you a lot of money if you decide to stick with the hobby. I will say this though, if you struggle to find justifiable differences between the headphones you mentioned, you will not have to worry about different sources, as long as you got adequate power like mentioned earler. I personally don't think there are any audible differences between different DAC's, and with most amplifiers it is so small that you might just as well imagine it. Especially on Head-fi there are a lot of people who will claim otherwise, but if you're content with just trusting your ears, you will have an easy time.

 

[preauxtip]

I'd suggest, if anything, that you should just go further down the 6xx rabbit hole and buy an OTL tube amp like a Darkvoice, TA-26s, or even build a Bottlehead Crack.

 

[haasaaroni]

I have a hypothesis. We all get in this hobby with some idea of a “perfect sound” that a headphone will have. And each headphone we buy, we think understand from reviews that it will correct the mistakes of our current headphones and bring us one step closer to that perfect sound we’ve been chasing. But then we find that, no, not only have the qualities of the new headphone not given us what we thought we wanted, it comes with a whole host of problems that we overlook for a while until they grow on us enough to look, again, for a new pair. Is anyone on board with me here?

So what I tried doing is letting go of that idea of a perfect sound and just finding a headphone that I enjoy regardless of technicalities and “performance.” The 6XX on tubes is one of the most enjoyable experiences I’ll ever have in this hobby. And it’s what I started with, and still have and enjoy. It won’t give a lot of fine detail, or a huge soundstage, but what it does, that intimacy, warmth and engagement, man does it hit it out of the park.

Anyway…long way of me saying I agree with @preauxtip

 

[Monsterzero]

Oy...this thread is giving me a headache!

the related HD 650's were the best headphones under $1000, in terms of neutrality, detail, and, surprisingly, sound stage, and that the HD 6XX's were basically the same, just tuned to be a little less neutral.

HD650/6xx can be a great sounding headphone with the right gear.

You have all convinced me that I would be much better off putting my money into a better set of headphones, instead of buying a better DAC/Amp combo.

Maybe

1) Resolution / Detail / Imaging -- I want to hear every pluck of a string, ever breath of air, every sound there is.
2) A large sound stage -- I know this is considered overrated by some, but it's extremely important to me. I can't explain why, it's just what makes music enjoyable for me. And please don't say "just get speakers". I know, I'm working on that too. This thread is specifically for headphones.
3) Neutrality -- I want to hear music the way the artist intended. I don't want tons of bass, don't want screeching trebles, just want faithful reproduction.

As good as the HD650 can be in the right setup, they will never be the best headphones for the above criteria.

1. they have excellent imaging, but they are not the final word in resolution.
2. The have one of the smallest stages i've heard.
3. Neutral they are not. They lean warm and have a midbass hump.


The headphone I'd suggest getting at your price point is the AKG K701 or K702. Very neutral, massive stage, excellent detail retrieval. However they are incredibly amp picky. I'd recommend reading the K701 thread and ask for amps that work well with it.
EDIT: The K701 will sound awful if you plug it into the SDAC. It, like the HD650, requires a proper headphone amp, just not the same amp, unfortunately.

There's also an open-box model of the HE6SE v2 going for only $629 USD

The HE6 is one of the hardest HPs on the planet to drive, to the point where many owners, myself included, hooked them up directly to the speaker taps of 100wpc speaker amps.
These days there are more amps out there that can drive the HE6 than there was when I had my pair, but IMO you can find other headphons that can fit the bill without having to resort to ther HE6.

f I can run a 300-ohm 6XX okay, shouldn't I be able to run a ~50 Ohm Hifiman just fine? The Arya, the HE6Se V2, the Focal Clear, they all sit around 50 Ohms or less. Have I made a fundamental misunderstanding?

Sensitivity is more indicative of how difficult a headphone is to drive.
The HD650 has a sensitivity of around 103, which is very effecient, whereas the HE6, for example, has an absurdly inefficient 83 sensitivity. So while the HE6 has a lower impedance than the 6xx, it's the sensitivity thats more important when gauging difficulty in driving a headphone.

They sounded damn near identical to my 6XX's, I didn't notice any bigger soundstage or anything, just a bit more detail in the bass.

What were you using to listen to these? (sorry if i missed that)

To sum it up, I could B.A.R.E.L.Y. notice any difference at all between my 6XX's and the HD800s and Arya Organics.

Well, if all of these sound identical to you I would save yourself a ton of cash and just get yourself any old low impedance/ high sensitivity headphone and call it a day.

If you want to stick with the 6xx and optimize its potential, I'd suggest at least a Schiit Modi MB and then add a pre-built Bottlehead Crack OTL amp, grab some upgraded tubes for it and that will bring you in right around a grand for everything.

I feel it's worth mentioning that if you do opt for an OTL amp, they only work well with other high impedance headphones, of which there are maybe 30- 40 in existence. OTLs can sound magical, but the amount of headphones that sound great from them is quite limited.

 

[moneypit]

The headphone I'd suggest getting at your price point is the AKG K701 or K702.

I feel validated. I only brought them up twice

 

[earmonger]

Diminishing returns are very real. So are the wild-eyed audiophile rationalizations (to oneself or dependents) for spending kilobucks for a headphone that is only an incremental improvement. You did hear the improved clarity of the kilobuck headphones, so your ears are working; it just didn't strike you as such an earthshaking improvement that it was worth another four figures.

If you want to keep experimenting you could try affordable and famous-for-soundstage models like the AKG 701 and, sorry to keep bringing it up, ATH-R70X. But you don't have to believe any hype -- your ears are the ones that matter.

 

[TyTB]

My thoughts on this - you have probably read a lot of impressions from other people regarding how these headphones sound online. You have set your expectations on how big differences there should be based on that. The truth is, that when you get to the 6XX level and go beyond, you hit serious diminishing returns in sound quality increase. The higher up the ladder you go, the more it starts being about small nuances that completely come down to taste, and frankly may require you to train your listening habits a bit to be a better critical listener. I'd argue many people aren't even interested in being better critical listeners, and that's fine.

I always say that I personally think the price to performance sweetspot for headphones is somewhere arouns HD600/650/6XX/Sundara territory. You are very honest about how you perceive things, that's good and will save you a lot of money if you decide to stick with the hobby. I will say this though, if you struggle to find justifiable differences between the headphones you mentioned, you will not have to worry about different sources, as long as you got adequate power like mentioned earler. I personally don't think there are any audible differences between different DAC's, and with most amplifiers it is so small that you might just as well imagine it. Especially on Head-fi there are a lot of people who will claim otherwise, but if you're content with just trusting your ears, you will have an easy time.

Yeah, a lot of people have been getting at that point, and of course, diminishing returns are real, and I always expected to run into them, I guess I just figured I was farther from the knee/point of exponential decay of the diminishing curve graph than I actually was. I figured the real diminishing returns began after about $700-1000, but it seems they start right at $300.

I'd suggest, if anything, that you should just go further down the 6xx rabbit hole and buy an OTL tube amp like a Darkvoice, TA-26s, or even build a Bottlehead Crack.

Any thoughts about the 6XX's on a Modius DAC and Lyr Amp from Schitt?

I have a hypothesis. We all get in this hobby with some idea of a “perfect sound” that a headphone will have. And each headphone we buy, we think understand from reviews that it will correct the mistakes of our current headphones and bring us one step closer to that perfect sound we’ve been chasing. But then we find that, no, not only have the qualities of the new headphone not given us what we thought we wanted, it comes with a whole host of problems that we overlook for a while until they grow on us enough to look, again, for a new pair. Is anyone on board with me here?

So what I tried doing is letting go of that idea of a perfect sound and just finding a headphone that I enjoy regardless of technicalities and “performance.” The 6XX on tubes is one of the most enjoyable experiences I’ll ever have in this hobby. And it’s what I started with, and still have and enjoy. It won’t give a lot of fine detail, or a huge soundstage, but what it does, that intimacy, warmth and engagement, man does it hit it out of the park.

Anyway…long way of me saying I agree with @preauxtip

Yeah, I feel like there's some kind of philosophy one could extract from this lesson, perhaps something about grass and it always being greener elsewhere... oh well, I'm no philosopher.

Oy...this thread is giving me a headache!


HD650/6xx can be a great sounding headphone with the right gear.

Maybe

As good as the HD650 can be in the right setup, they will never be the best headphones for the above criteria.

1. they have excellent imaging, but they are not the final word in resolution.
2. The have one of the smallest stages i've heard.
3. Neutral they are not. They lean warm and have a midbass hump.


The headphone I'd suggest getting at your price point is the AKG K701 or K702. Very neutral, massive stage, excellent detail retrieval. However they are incredibly amp picky. I'd recommend reading the K701 thread and ask for amps that work well with it.
EDIT: The K701 will sound awful if you plug it into the SDAC. It, like the HD650, requires a proper headphone amp, just not the same amp, unfortunately.



The HE6 is one of the hardest HPs on the planet to drive, to the point where many owners, myself included, hooked them up directly to the speaker taps of 100wpc speaker amps.
These days there are more amps out there that can drive the HE6 than there was when I had my pair, but IMO you can find other headphons that can fit the bill without having to resort to ther HE6.

Sensitivity is more indicative of how difficult a headphone is to drive.
The HD650 has a sensitivity of around 103, which is very effecient, whereas the HE6, for example, has an absurdly inefficient 83 sensitivity. So while the HE6 has a lower impedance than the 6xx, it's the sensitivity thats more important when gauging difficulty in driving a headphone.


What were you using to listen to these? (sorry if i missed that)

Well, if all of these sound identical to you I would save yourself a ton of cash and just get yourself any old low impedance/ high sensitivity headphone and call it a day.

If you want to stick with the 6xx and optimize its potential, I'd suggest at least a Schiit Modi MB and then add a pre-built Bottlehead Crack OTL amp, grab some upgraded tubes for it and that will bring you in right around a grand for everything.

I feel it's worth mentioning that if you do opt for an OTL amp, they only work well with other high impedance headphones, of which there are maybe 30- 40 in existence. OTLs can sound magical, but the amount of headphones that sound great from them is quite limited.

Mind explaining the differences in your interpretation of the words "Imaging" and "Resolution"? To me, they are the exact same. Detail/Resolution/Imaging

As to the equipment, I was playing .flac files directly off my Samsung Galaxy S20 FE, plugged into the FiiO K7 DAC/Amp.

Any thoughts on pairing the 6XX with a Modius DAC and Lyr Amp?

I feel validated. I only brought them up twice

Alright alright, I yield, you and many others have suggested the same AKG's, I'll take a look

Diminishing returns are very real. So are the wild-eyed audiophile rationalizations (to oneself or dependents) for spending kilobucks for a headphone that is only an incremental improvement. You did hear the improved clarity of the kilobuck headphones, so your ears are working; it just didn't strike you as such an earthshaking improvement that it was worth another four figures.

If you want to keep experimenting you could try affordable and famous-for-soundstage models like the AKG 701 and, sorry to keep bringing it up, ATH-R70X. But you don't have to believe any hype -- your ears are the ones that matter.

Yeah, I know I would be running into diminishing returns, I guess I just figured I was father down from the knee/point-of-exponential-decay of the diminishing returns graph. I figured diminishing returns would really begin around the $700-1000 mark, but it seems they begin right at $300.