[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl They're building a player to a price point. They use the best parts they can at their targeted price point. Adding audiophile-grade parts to the existing circuit is a cost-effective way to bring up the perfomance of mass-market gear to the level of the high-end stuff. You have to figure that high-end niche audio boutiques have very high costs to manufacture their players, mass-market consumer electronics firms can buy in bulk and use cheap labor overseas to build their products on assembly-lines. This is why a mod-ed mass-market piece can rival players built by small audiophile companies at a fraction of the price. they end up with identical quality transport and DACs (because the audiophile brands all source from the same small handful of suppliers), and the mod-ers add the same audiophile-grade parts to the rest of the player that the boutiques use in their own hand-made products.

Yeah markl, but I'm not suggesting that they offer the same product modded from factory, for the same price as the one without the mods, they will increase the price, of course, so the price point will be other.....OTOH, are you sure that if Denon implement those changes in the same factory, and made any player like the modded one, the final product will cost them the same in parts and labor, as those DIY modders, of curse parts and labor for them will be a lot cheaper, so the final product will be a lot cheaper, and as they will be even better terminated, they could even charge even more than those DIYers, let's say more than the price of the actual player plus mods, and I will get it instead of the modded one, as for a few bucks more I will get a superior product, and the profits for them will be bigger IMO, maybe they will not sell the same amount, but they will offer an intermediate product maybe with another model number or so, for those who want it, what do you think...???

 

[theaudiohobby]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovkiller but I'm not suggesting that they offer the same product modded from factory, for the same price as the one without the mods, they will increase the price, of course, so the price point will be other.....OTOH, are you sure that if Denon implement those changes in the same factory, and made any player like the modded one, the final product will cost them the same in parts and labor, as those DIY modders, of curse parts and labor for them will be a lot cheaper, so the final product will be a lot cheaper, and as they will be even better terminated, they could even charge even more than those DIYers, let's say more than the price of the actual player plus mods, and I will get it instead of the modded one, as for a few bucks more I will get a superior product, and the profits for them will be bigger IMO, maybe they will not sell the same amount, but they will offer an intermediate product maybe with another model number or so, for those who want it, what do you think...???

Your suggestion does not really work that well in practice, most of the modders cost savings are achieved by selling direct to public without any or very little associated manufacturer costs. Costs such as labour, shipping, taxes, dealer margins, advertising costs, headoffice costs etc all add up. The same phenomena motivates DIY projects in others sectors especially home improvement.

 

[Welly Wu]

Sovkiller:

I hope you will not mind if I intervene here. You raise some very interesting points: how does one determine parts / labor quality from one brand / model to another one? I understand your reservations about these aftermarket modifications; after all, I am the one who will be making the investment and it is not cheap. I too pondered whether to just sell my Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi but you know what made me realize that this was the best option (remember that I am still considering a UE-10 Pro earphone later this year as well)? The responses of those who had them done themselves. People like ServinginEcuador, MarkL, Zanth, and I think Tuberoller himself (but I could be wrong about that one) as well as Jude. They all got it done and reported that it did make a difference. Their strategy was the same as me: get the best source component and mod it like hell instead of investing in it in a much more expensive one. Why re-invent the whell when it works just fine? I decided to trust that the strategy they employed with spectacular subjective success will work for me. As I have learned: success leaves clues. Model the right people in their thinking, beliefs, and behaviors and you too can reap similar rewards if you sow exactly as they did.

I think this time tested and proven strategy is a "secret" in these forums as well as other audio / video enthusiast discussion boards. Please be open to the idea that these aftermarket modders are not selling pure snake oil; their businesses would have been detected as being shady and failed by now. We audiophiles are a very discerning bunch of people when it comes to this stuff. Past customers of ModWright have been extremely satisfied by the levels of customer service, professionalism, and reasonable cost of mods to their products. I trust I will be one among them soon.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by Welly Wu Sovkiller: I hope you will not mind if I intervene here. You raise some very interesting points: how does one determine parts / labor quality from one brand / model to another one? I understand your reservations about these aftermarket modifications; after all, I am the one who will be making the investment and it is not cheap. I too pondered whether to just sell my Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi but you know what made me realize that this was the best option (remember that I am still considering a UE-10 Pro earphone later this year as well)? The responses of those who had them done themselves. People like ServinginEcuador, MarkL, Zanth, and I think Tuberoller himself (but I could be wrong about that one) as well as Jude. They all got it done and reported that it did make a difference. Their strategy was the same as me: get the best source component and mod it like hell instead of investing in it in a much more expensive one. Why re-invent the wheel when it works just fine? I decided to trust that the strategy they employed with spectacular subjective success will work for me. As I have learned: success leaves clues. Model the right people in their thinking, beliefs, and behaviors and you too can reap similar rewards if you sow exactly as they did. I think this time tested and proven strategy is a "secret" in these forums as well as other audio / video enthusiast discussion boards. Please be open to the idea that these aftermarket modders are not selling pure snake oil; their businesses would have been detected as being shady and failed by now. We audiophiles are a very discerning bunch of people when it comes to this stuff. Past customers of ModWright have been extremely satisfied by the levels of customer service, professionalism, and reasonable cost of mods to their products. I trust I will be one among them soon.

Sorry Welly, maybe this is a very good strategy if you look at it from this point of view you have, and maybe is the right point, but there are anothers also, and sorry, I'm a little skeptic, is just another point of view, and no offense and nothing personal, and I do not want to irritate anybody here, we are just bringing points, good or bad, to the table, anyway the desicion was already done, and amen.....and as you say at the end, is your money, not mine, and and I'm not doubting, at all, that the player at the end, will be a terrific player, as it is already a hell of a player, and if it only could be better and this is great......But I have my reserves here, and what I was questioning is, and maybe is true that there are not too many options of different people that could do those mods, but are you sure guys that those guys are not exaggerating with the costs of those mods? As theaudiohobby pointed, they for sure know that in the market costs such as, taxes, dealer margins, advertising costs, headoffice costs, etc....all add up to the final product costs, but are you sure that they are not charging part of those costs even when they do not have those expenses? OTOH, they also know that you will get a performance similar to a more expensive player, are you sure they are not using this evidence also at the time of the pricing??? Guys, maybe I'm wrong, and I wish to be, honestly, but a mod of 1000.00 in a 1200.00 player is a hell of an expensive mod, what are they replacing there, all what is inside the player? Are you sure that they really are saving you money? Comparing performances maybe, but.......IMO it is very expensive for my poor wallet, sorry...it is not on my league.....

 

[davidmiya]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovkiller ...but are you sure guys that those guys are not exaggerating with the costs of those mods?

The mods will cost however much the modder feels they should cost. The price is dependant solely upon whether or not enough people are willing to fork out the money for the mod. To put things in perspective, they could charge $2,000 for a mod worth $200 in parts. As long as someone buys the mod, the is price is justified.

If you second guess yourself about profit margins and performance ratios, you'll defeat yourself quickly. Market dynamics are not about what's sane, it's about what's monetarily viable.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by davidmiya The mods will cost however much the modder feels they should cost. The price is dependant solely upon whether or not enough people are willing to fork out the money for the mod. To put things in perspective, they could charge $2,000 for a mod worth $200 in parts. As long as someone buys the mod, the is price is justified. If you second guess yourself about profit margins and performance ratios, you'll defeat yourself quickly. Market dynamics are not about what's sane, it's about what's monetarily viable.

Thanks David, and that is the only explanation for those outrageous prices.....BTW it even seems to have a logic (not mine, of course).....sorry this seems to be an insane world for insane wallets, mine is not fat enough to compete.....I will never pay whatever I do not consider fair, this will carry another bigger problem, maybe I will never have what I would like also....LOL....but not always life is sane or fair....sad but true...

 

[Music Fanatic]

I'm continually amazed on how people can opine on the worth (or usually, the lack of worth) of equipment they have not heard (or barely heard.)

 

[theaudiohobby]

Quote:

Originally posted by Music Fanatic I'm continually amazed on how people can opine on the worth (or usually, the lack of worth) of equipment they have not heard (or barely heard.)

I concur with this sentiment in its entirety.

 

[Sovkiller]

Common sense......

 

[theaudiohobby]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovkiller Common sense......

on whose account exactly

, it is a free market, there are any number of people who feel spending more than USD500 on an all singing and dancing DVD player borders on insanity. So where do you draw the line? The ultimate goal here is absolute sonic performance and it is left for every individual to choose where to draw the line.

EDIT: for grammer

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by theaudiohobby on whose account exactly , it is a free market, there are any number of people who feel spending more than USD500 on an all singing and dancing DVD player borders on insanity. So where do you draw the line? The ultimate goal here is absolute sonic performance and it is left for every individual to choose where to draw the line. EDIT: for grammer

Exactly, I'm just drawing MINE.....you can feel free to do whatever you please, I was just suggesting to the initial poster, Welly Wu some ideas and try to discuss WITH HIM, some of my points, in a civilized manner. Some points that even maybe him had already considered and ignored, or maybe he feel in a different way and feel perfectly comfortable spending the same amount he had paid for the player in mods....if this is the case, as it seems to be, I failed miserably, sorry.....we seems to have different points of view, fortunatelly as you said there is market for everybody....even for me....

 

[Music Fanatic]

In this thread Sovkiller summarized his feelings about high-end audio equipment:

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovkiller The main difference is that maybe I'm being honest, while others ....

... in other words, if you have different opinions than Sovkiller, you must be either deliberately or unconsciously duplicitous. Hard to have a discussion when one party takes such an unreasonable position.

 

[theaudiohobby]

thanks Music fanatic for providing a link to that thread, I think there is no need to discuss this matter further with Sovkiller.

 

[Sovkiller]

Guys you are taking a discussion in the wrong direction, I have nothing against hi-end audio, and hi-end products, I love them, even when sometimes I can't afford them, but just when they are real and proved to be such, but what I'm completely skeptic is sometimes with some hi end audio myths, that is different...and we have al ot here....and a lot of believers...

".............. in other words, if you have different opinions than Sovkiller, you must be either deliberately or unconsciously duplicitous........"

Regarding this, you are stating that, not me, and of course you "must" not be, and I hope this never happen, but unfortunately and for some strange reasons, I have seen a lot of that, and too frequent...sometimes to justify an investment, sometime to justify a commercial interest, and sometimes even to feel a superior golden earing being, or God knows what other stupid and wicked idea, because if you can't hear the difference you are this or that, I don't care what you call me, sorry, I had suffered by myself for some of those myths, and waste some money, sorry but from now on, I heard, I believe/I do not heard, I don't believe, is that that simple....and I strongly suggest you to do the same, and please do yourself a favor, and do not believe this or that just because 150 "trusted" guys told you that....

 

[niubi]

aside from the differences in color (black, silver and gold), what are the major (if any) differences between the dv-59avi, dv-868avi (europe), dv-s969avi (asia/aus/nz)?

the major difference i noted was that the non-u.s. models were ntsc/pal (requiring a multisystem tv/projector/plasma no doubt) and offered progressive scan in both systems. the pioneer australia site also noted that the dv-s969avi has a universal power supply (automatic 110-127v; 220-240v). the dv-868avi is available as a multi-region player (with software mod). the dv-59avi is also available as a multi-region player (i am not sure if it is a hardware or software mod). i am not sure about the asia model with respect to multi-region.

any other differences?