FiiO X7 | DXD | DSD | 384K/64B | ESS9018+ Android | WiFi | Bluetooth | 4 AMP modules | Balanced Out |
Jun 30, 2015 at 3:13 PM Post #4,141 of 18,020
   
Please read the article @earfonia quoted earlier as it has the historical reason why and where DSD (or actual bit stream, the tech behind DSD) is important in the industry: http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-thorsten-loesch-amrifi-audiostream-addendum-pcm-vs-dsd
 
True PCM encoding and decoding must be done in multi-bit ADC and DAC, and they are, in fact, extremely rare these days. The Delta-Sigma DAC that dominates the market now are bit stream based, which is what DSD is based upon as well. So in a sense, we might use mainly PCM for music files storage, but the playback, and especially the most basic layer, is mostly done in bit stream, which isn't that far off from DSD. Again, the reason is simple - hardware wise, bit stream / DSD is cheaper to make and easier to use/implemented, thus benefit consumer the most.
 
 
 
... and how many people listen and keep DSD/SACD vs. how many people listen and keep mp3/AAC/FLAC/etc, which are all PCM based?
 
The only company that really can make a difference, at least in the current market, is Apple. But Apple really has no reason to go for DSD. Don't forget, the big reason for Sony to go for SACD is because Sony thought SACD is uncopiable and uncrackable. It is originally a tool to combat piracy more so than it is a way to deliver Hi-res music. But the age of legal digital music download (= iTune) pretty much makes SACD irrelevant.

Ah, thanks.
 
I do understand the topic now. 
 
Still, as long as DSD storage prooves itself to be worse than PCM, especially FLAC, I doubt that everyone will suddenly pass to dsd. 
 
Though it could be the future, thing which could be for the better or for worse. At least, DSD is only lossless as I understand it. 
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 3:17 PM Post #4,142 of 18,020
Hello,
 
Sorry to be far from your technical preoccupations, but I'm more worried about how open the OS/soft will be for the community to tinker with it.
FiiO is a hardware company, apart from low level interfaces, the rest should be completely open.
 
I would really be interested in having this information as my purchase is based on it at 99% (and others around me at work, just waiting for a capable DAP with open OS and open software).
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 3:23 PM Post #4,143 of 18,020
  Hello,
 
Sorry to be far from your technical preoccupations, but I'm more worried about how open the OS/soft will be for the community to tinker with it.
FiiO is a hardware company, apart from low level interfaces, the rest should be completely open.
 
I would really be interested in having this information as my purchase is based on it at 99% (and others around me at work, just waiting for a capable DAP with open OS and open software).

What tinkering are you planning to do with it?
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 3:57 PM Post #4,145 of 18,020
I think for the best experience of SACD you're going to need the right gear. A player,  a good separates and decent speakers. Everything else is either optional or pedantic. My dream music setup comprises of separates. DSD is yet to make an impact with me. Currently I own a Denon system so perhaps a matching SACD player would be a start.
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 3:57 PM Post #4,146 of 18,020
Not something that drastic but let's say that if some features are lacking software wise (even though the hardware allows it), to be able to plug your own API on some interface.

I gave a couple of examples in a previous post.

Firmware should always be only related to enhancing the interfaces and updating the stock OS and software.

Today, everything is modular, pluggable and interconnected. For me that's all the many reasons the software side should be as open as possible.
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 4:02 PM Post #4,147 of 18,020
Well it's an open source project however manufacturers hold the right to protect their software and hardware customisations.  Apple gets a hard time although at least their one size fits all approach minimises system bugs,
 
I'm an Android advocate don't get me wrong, however so much can wrong especially when you start altering system files when you don't know what you're doing. Although for people who do I suppose the element of risk is a challenge and ability to fix things when they go wrong is always a bonus. Lost count how many times I nearly killed my Samsung Galaxy S2.
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 4:07 PM Post #4,148 of 18,020
 
   
George, what did you use as a source playing DSD vs PCM?  What I mean, did you use a source that natively supports/decodes DSD or the one which converts is to PCM internally?
 
I'm not going to pretend about having a deep knowledge of audio format standards, will need to sit down and read up on it one of these days.  But I do enjoy running comparison of David Elias tracks, available for free here: https://www.oppodigital.com/hra/dsd-by-davidelias.aspx , where they have the same song in DSD, FLAC, 24b WAV and 16b WAV, and 320kbps mp3.  You CAN hear a difference when you are using something like N6 or LP5 or X3ii or X5ii DAPs where DSD is decoded natively.  The change is not subtle, but really noticeable with 3D expansion of soundstage and sound itself becoming more dynamic.  Of course, you also need a good set of quality full size or IEMs and maybe upgraded silver cable to take full advantage of every ounce of improvement :wink:

I used a first generation X5 with ie800. 
 
No difference for me. 
 
I am going to test again, but the inconvenience of not being able to use EQ might not be worth the troubles. 

 
So you are using old gen X5 which doesn't support native DSD playback and converts/downsamples it (or whatever) in order to play DSD files, and you are surprised about not being able to hear a difference? :wink:  George, stop by your local music store and compare your X5 to X5ii or X3ii playing the same DSD files.  Your IE800 should be able to handle it, and I guarantee you will hear a difference!
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 4:45 PM Post #4,149 of 18,020
   
So you are using old gen X5 which doesn't support native DSD playback and converts/downsamples it (or whatever) in order to play DSD files, and you are surprised about not being able to hear a difference? :wink:  George, stop by your local music store and compare your X5 to X5ii or X3ii playing the same DSD files.  Your IE800 should be able to handle it, and I guarantee you will hear a difference!

I planned already to go to test X5II in the following two days. I have to decide if I want it or keep my X5. I am going to take some DSD files with me.
 
Another thing that hurts me with DSD is that most of what I like is not alavaible in DSD. If only there were lots of albums alavaible. But there is very scarce DSD material available, and even less metal DSD, and even less the bands that I love. 
 
But I want to know for future projects if I will hear a difference. 
 
Also, If we software convert PCM to DSD, and playback the DSD, it will spound the same as the PCM did?
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 4:48 PM Post #4,150 of 18,020
Not something that drastic but let's say that if some features are lacking software wise (even though the hardware allows it), to be able to plug your own API on some interface.

I gave a couple of examples in a previous post.

Firmware should always be only related to enhancing the interfaces and updating the stock OS and software.

Today, everything is modular, pluggable and interconnected. For me that's all the many reasons the software side should be as open as possible.

Look, you seem to know Android. 
 
X7 could be as open as it can before introducing bugs. After a point, we both know that what we tinker with alters things in a bad way.
 
I remember Fiio letting us install lots of audio related apps, that they test and can make work with X7. This means that you will not be able to tinker beyond that point. But I do hope that the array of apps that fiio enables will satisfy most users. At least, I think it should, as most good Android apps work wonders these days. 
 
I wonder if we will get any default great app that will meet every requirments. Like a Fiio made app for music that works wonders with x7. As far as I know, if you optimize the software, you can improove the SQ even further. 
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 6:06 PM Post #4,152 of 18,020
August in China, a couple months later for the rest.
 
Jun 30, 2015 at 7:25 PM Post #4,153 of 18,020
Hi everyone,
 
I have read some epic misunderstandings here. I won't brag about the science involved in Digital signal processing and the different methods used to digitalize analogue signals, but :
 
it's a complete non sense to bluntly compare the sampling frequencies of DSD64, and PCM (whatever encapsulation or form is used), those are two different ways to digitalize music whith each pro and cons. it's like to compare FM and AM for radio broadcast, or CCD and CMOS for sensors, two very different technologies to achieve the same goal.
 
For those interested, you can learn of to measure the absolute quantity of information that can be stored using a method (entropy).
 
having 1 bit quantification or 16,24,32 bit quantification is very different, but telling "more is better", it is not true. keep in mind that when there is conversion, there is noise (always) induced by the very nature of quantification or sampling. When you digitalize, you have sampling noise (cuting the analogue signal in very thin segments), but quantification/quantization noise as well (measuring the value of the segment)
Keep in mind that it's just to get the idea of it.
 
in the late 90'DSD was designed to reduce as much as possible the drawback of the previous methods, that were limiting by design the absolute performance of the media. SACD was design to achieve better dynamic, more bandwidth (the true meaning of bandwidth is the width of the frequency band that can be reproduced). The SACD was thought to be better than the CD by design.
 
DSD use a different approach than PCM, but that doesnt mean that PCM is bad.
 
DSD files displayed in time can be seen as a signal of 0(flat) and 1 (diracs, or peaks). simple. but its the density of the peaks that does it all. In fact it's very close to digital amplification structure (class D and derived class). DSD was designed to be directly ingested by digital amp with a simple sum filter.
This approach is very clever, maybe too clever to be marketed to mainstream audience, and damn, was the marketing very poor on SACD!
if you create DSD from PCM, it's very often no use at all (except for very high frequency professional file format). But if you create a DSD master from the original analog tapes, then it's interesting. DSD conversion from analogue signal can be virtually free of quantification noise until 88-90khz, so completely free of conversion noise on the entire frequency range that is considered Hifi (20Khz max)
 
again, keep in mind that the format was designed nearly 18 years ago to compete with CD, AND embed mutlichannel version on the same disc (quite a feat). When you are lucky to find a SACD version of an album, you have 99.9% of chance to have the best version available on earth of this album. Then there is no point of keeping inferior version like 16/44, or even 24/96 PCM (because it's difficult to be sure where it comes from).
 
But, and this is important, if a remaster of an old album, would be done in PCM with the latest technologies available in 2015, the very best ADC, and directly from analogue master tapes, the result would be very good and quite similar to a DSD64 master (exception for DSD128 or DSD256 which are even better). But sadly, most high res files you have today comes from the master created years ago for the CD version (hence the high number of 88.8khz files / 96khz), in times where ADC where not as good as today.
 
I'm not sure, but I thought that it was compulsory for a SACD to be issued to be mastered from the original Analogue tape (that might be wrong though) => more reliable as a source
 
Following this, I have nearly 40% of my lossless collection in SACD /DSD. It's typically the case for 60', 70', and 80' albums. At this time, most of the masters were analogue, and digital conversion was at its prehistoric era as far as music is concerned. A SACD Version of an album of these years is a complete rejuvenation (special DSD master created directly from the original analogue master tapes...)
 
So yes, being able to natively play it is a major issue for me. I want to be able to play my music, and I don't want to do anything special to play it on a DAP. I want it to be natively supported, and don't want to spend hours to do file conversion.
 
And yes when DSD is natively supported by the DAC, it's better sound overall, because it means less conversion, so less noise (remember : conversion = noise). You can hear it comparing X3ii and X5. I will compare X5 with X5ii in this regard.
 
Bottom line : DSD exists, and is very often the best version avalaible for a music track. the first to natively handle all SACD files, including DST, will gain a new client : me. I am willing to pay 800-1000$ for this.
 
Jul 1, 2015 at 1:46 AM Post #4,154 of 18,020

This was an interesting read. 
 
But again, DSD has the dis-advantage to not accept any type of digital signal processing. 
 
PCM in 24 bit and 96khz has virtually zero noise added, even after lots of DSP, if the processing is done in 24 bits or higher. With DSD, you have to accept what came on the CD, no volume control, no equalizers.
 
All DSD materials are scarce for some music generes. especially for electronic music, or metal music. Or avant garde. Or particular classical artists.
 
Also, as far as I know, ifi idsd has the only DAC that is capable of dxd-something octa something lots of bits per second. 
 
I know that this is often overlooked by audiophiles, but DSD needs specific DACs to be played, and most software to play DSD is hard to design. I have a rough time implementing DSD. This does not mean that I am going to drop it, I know that some people really use it, but just for putting it out there, implementing DSD is complicated, and relies heavily on DAC processing. With PCM stream, you can and almost always will stream the data through the processor, to apply digital signal processing. 
 
All in all, this all made me curious on how a DSD sounds on a native dsd DAC.
 
Jul 1, 2015 at 2:19 AM Post #4,155 of 18,020
Originally Posted by Dobrescu George /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
....
 
Also, as far as I know, ifi idsd has the only DAC that is capable of dxd-something octa something lots of bits per second. 
 
....
 
All in all, this all made me curious on how a DSD sounds on a native dsd DAC.

 
Many newer DACs are now DXD capable. My Geek Pulse XFi and Yulong DA8 (almost 2 years old) are also DXD capable.
 
There are lots of debate about PCM vs. DSD, so not going to start any. From my experience, they are just different. None is superior.  DSD from DSD capable desktop DAC, usually sounds a tad warmer and smoother, fuller sounding on the midrange area. Can be perceived a little more analogue sound as compared to PCM. What I like from PCM is usually more transparent, with slightly better micro dynamic.  Anyway, that's probably OOT in this thread. So better don't discuss it here.
 
I just hope that all this discussion lead to one thing, that may all Fiio futura players with DSD capability use analog volume control something like PGA2311 chip, or the variant. 
wink_face.gif

 

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