Sorry, but that is daft and it's what's wrong with technology and fanboys these days. Manufacturers will soon start using 4 of those, then 8, and so on, just because people are chasing bigger numbers.
Burson was just an example but Benchmark Audio is only using an es9028pro in their state of art DAC, yet it measures perfectly and sounds amazing. RME is also not using the latest and greatest chips. You must use what makes sense in the device you are building. Putting two desktop chips into a portable (lol, ok, what's the word... transportable?) makes no sense, you are not going to make the most of them.
Also, the amp section of something like the Burson is way above whatever can go in this brick, and will drive planar magnetics with ease and much better sound quality.
As I mentioned , what matters most would be the implementations, and whether or not the DAC are at full potentials.
I know you have exaggerated it but I dare you to make a desktop DAC that can even run 4x 9038Pro and keep the prices at $1.5k….engineers struggling to even use 2X in a desktop DAC
Why does Burson use 9028Pros dual ? Because it is perfect ? Then Burson is claiming they are superior to Sabres in designing DAC IC ? Common…. It is just a marketing tool, and advertisements at best.
There are physics, and a proper desktop will always outshine transportable devices. So I am not debating it.
What I am saying is that technologies isn’t going backward as you mentioned.
The sizes isn’t the point to judge whether a device is progressing forward or backward either but rather the implementations of what is inside. If you think designing a device that operate 2X 9038Pros on a piece of battery is easy, then I will just stop here
I know you have exaggerated it but I dare you to make a desktop DAC that can even run 4x 9038Pro and keep the prices at $1.5k….engineers struggling to even use 2X in a desktop DAC
Why does Burson use 9028Pros dual ? Because it is perfect ? Then Burson is claiming they are superior to Sabres in designing DAC IC ? Common…. It is just a marketing tool, and advertisements at best.
There are physics, and a proper desktop will always outshine transportable devices. So I am not debating it.
What I am saying is that technologies isn’t going backward as you mentioned.
The sizes isn’t the point to judge whether a device is progressing forward or backward either but rather the implementations of what is inside. If you think designing a device that operate 2X
I know you have exaggerated it but I dare you to make a desktop DAC that can even run 4x 9038Pro and keep the prices at $1.5k….engineers struggling to even use 2X in a desktop DAC
There are desktop DACs that cost 5k or even 10k, they could easily afford putting 4 of these chips inside, price wise. These cost below $100 a piece.
It's about diminishing returns. While using 4 over a single one might (just) have measurable benefits, they will not be audible. More importantly, there will be other components that will influence the sound a lot more. It's like putting a super high performance engine in a run of the mill 20k car. It won't break any speed records To get the most of that engine you need 20k brakes.
There are several other components in a DAC/amp that the manufacturers are concerned with: the power, the noise, the output stage, interference, amp distortion etc...
Seeing that folks in China is having the M17, does anyone have any more information about these questions ?
If the M17 tick both boxes as I mentioned
Running Quad DAC into Mono for both ES9038Pro and multiple batteries that can output a considerate amount of supplies to feed the rails +/-15V. Hopefully it isn’t just a flimsy single 3.6V LiPo. If these 2 boxes are ticked, then I am thinking that the M17 is a very hard to beat transportable system
Though somehow I have a lot of doubt, heat dissipation ? Power consumptions ? Still doesn’t make senses for a little device if taking full advantage of everything
You are aware that all that is written there are for a much larger desktop device, right? I am not an analogue audio circuit designer, but for sure I wouldn't be comparing an analogue circuit that is supposed to fit in a matchbox to a desktop device of much bigger space and resources.
People want smaller devices but at the same time to have the largest battery with most energy consuming components, even in dual configuration, maximum output power but 10+ hours of play time, and all that with a powerful processor. But it doesn't work that way.
It is even a small wonder for me that those minimal specs of M17 are possible.
Oh, and Benchmark uses ES9028PRO, not 9038PRO - apparently it just doesn't make sense even for a desktop DAC. But if M17 would have 28 instead of 38, we would hear a lot of bashing here.
I disagree with the belief "size == quality". FiiO reached top marks in an ASR bench test of the M15 for DAPs and nearly in the top quarter in the excellent category of all DACs tested on ASR. So they are capable of outstanding engineering and clean fidelity, in an even smaller package than the M17 .... but that was w/an AKM DAC which isnt plagued with the IMD hump problem.
I stand by my original hesitation I exhibited that led to this line of discussion. I do hope FiiO invested in AP test gear to help them achieve the vanishing low distortions and noise the last few years of dacs and hp amp have been achieving. And that they publish those tests. I for one will require this before purchase. Else I'll wait longer until an independent tester does so.
Edit: ...I mean... if use of multiple desktop dac chips and the desktop THX amp design leads to inferior performance -- due to heat and device noise issues or lack of ESS implementation care and optimization above and beyond the standard usage guideline the manufacturer provides I read detailed in that asr forum post linked to (thank you @lantian ) -- over what they achieved with the M15 ... what was it all for?
stand by my original hesitation I exhibited that led to this line of discussion. I do hope FiiO invested in AP test gear to help them achieve the vanishing low distortions and noise the last few years of dacs and hp amp have been achieving. And that they publish those tests. I for one will require this before purchase. Else I'll wait longer until an independent tester does so.
As far as I know, James has been doing this pretty much all his life, also did it before FiiO. You are suspecting that he and his team may not have the engineering background to test their design to the minute details (and have the required tools to do that), to a level that you "reached" just by reading a few post and looking at a few graphs in forums? Aren't you over-exaggerating your position a bit with your hesitation, especially if you are not an analog audio circuit designer?
As far as I know, James has been doing this pretty much all his life, also did it before FiiO. You are suspecting that he and his team may not have the engineering background to test their design to the minute details (and have the required tools to do that), to a level that you "reached" just by reading a few post and looking at a few graphs in forums? Aren't you over-exaggerating your position a bit with your hesitation, especially if you are not an analogue circuit designer?
What is it you are trying to argue? That "we" should buy it regardless of ... anything?
Have you seen how some of the gear FiiO puts out tests? Some demonstrate excellent performance. Some with demonstrable failings. Even if it costs $50 or $100, if the technical bench test is far below a $9 device, that is $41 to $91 dollars wasted. But some costs far more. ... with serious engineering flaws.
In the light of a known inexperience with the DAC in question -- why should I assume the power supply and circuit implementation wont be the standard manufacturer's example plagued with the IMD hump -- the story is the same here. But the stakes are an order of magnitude plus a few times higher.
In the light of a known inexperience with the DAC in question -- why should I assume the power supply and circuit implementation wont be the standard manufacturer's example plagued with the IMD hump -- the story is the same here. But the stakes are an order of magnitude plus a few times higher.
You keep calling "inexperience", as if you have the "experience" to be able to judge what experience means on that particular subject - as if you know the world of analog audio circuit design engineering. So that you know, this is not how it works - that just because you have a new chip in front of you, you are back to primary school. There might be other things to be hesitant about M17 but "new chip syndrome" is the least of it to worry about.
You should, for sure, be smart about spending your money, for example, by waiting for measurements, but no need to act like you are outsmarting seasoned designers when all your experience is based on some forum posts.
"The gain is divided into five levels, namely low, medium, high, big ear, super big ear mode, super big ear only takes effect when DC power is supplied. "
"The length of the house is good, 1, the side button heat dissipation hole, because the project design has been frozen and will not be adjusted. 2. There is a high probability that the limited edition will not be released. Whether it is titanium alloy or stainless steel, the processing difficulty is particularly high for us (the qualification rate of the M11Plus 1000 stainless steel housings is only 30%, and the supplier has made it clear that it will not do it in the future). 3. The leather case design also has the six-sided honeycomb geometric elements that FiiO launched this year. 4. The fiber holder will not increase."
"The gain is divided into five levels, namely low, medium, high, big ear, super big ear mode, super big ear only takes effect when DC power is supplied. "
"The length of the house is good, 1, the side button heat dissipation hole, because the project design has been frozen and will not be adjusted. 2. There is a high probability that the limited edition will not be released. Whether it is titanium alloy or stainless steel, the processing difficulty is particularly high for us (the qualification rate of the M11Plus 1000 stainless steel housings is only 30%, and the supplier has made it clear that it will not do it in the future). 3. The leather case design also has the six-sided honeycomb geometric elements that FiiO launched this year. 4. The fiber holder will not increase."
Thanks for the info , what batteries are being used ?
I take that external DC will take 15-18V ? To supply the THX +/-15 Rails ? That enable the Super big ears mode ? Elephant ears ??
Well then I should be an easy sell. As that is and will remain tops on my list of things I will want emperical evidence assuring me. Dont take insult, but you saying so is not that. No amount of analog section exceptionalism is going to counter a source signal that got stepped on by the dac. And, repeating myself, that is my only worry in light of what I've seen more that just a couple of fiio DAC sections do.
Nor am I a bench test perfectionist. A few (quite a few) of the dac-amps / amps in my gear list should illustrate that. A lot of "middling" performers that I'm entirely happy with. But as far as dacs are concerned, the bar has gotten so high the last few years for so little dollars (take my X-16 for example), there is really no reason to forgive middling performance anymore in a totl priced device.
Translated From Chinese "M17 uses the same four-way THX788+ amplifier circuit as the K9Pro, and the output power is very strong. It is a real portable computer. Because of this, if it is in the DC power supply mode, due to the high working voltage of the amp circuit, when paired with some headphones that require high voltage and high current, the M17 will be more portable than common when playing dynamic and strong songs under long-term high volume. The equipment is quite tall. So we specially designed this cooling bracket with fan to cool down. There are two optional wind speeds, and there is enough space at the bottom for wiring. In addition, unlike other portable devices, M17 comes standard with this heat dissipation bracket and a high-power DC power supply (fast charging is not supported). It also fully demonstrates the extraordinary features of M17. When posting this Weibo, some netizens are interested in this fan bracket, so I will explain the ins and outs. Because it is designed for M17, the size structure is not very suitable for other models, but if there are many people in demand, we can still put into production a relatively general heat dissipation bracket."
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To get the most of that engine you need 20k brakes. 
