FiiO F9, F9Pro-Detachable MMCX connector,Hi-Res Audio Certified,2.5mm TRRS/3.5mm audio cable
Oct 8, 2017 at 6:29 AM Post #646 of 1,544
Hey guys, does anyone know if the volume buttons work on the Google Pixel? I asked this question on the F5 thread (where the buttons on that cable didn't work), but the remote on the F9 looks a bit different... so maybe it supports a larger range of compatibility with android phones?
 
Oct 8, 2017 at 10:15 PM Post #647 of 1,544
My F9's remote works with my Pixel, volume controls included.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 3:59 AM Post #648 of 1,544
Hey guys, does anyone know if the volume buttons work on the Google Pixel? I asked this question on the F5 thread (where the buttons on that cable didn't work), but the remote on the F9 looks a bit different... so maybe it supports a larger range of compatibility with android phones?
On the F5 there is a switch for Android and iOS.
The F9 only works on Android, but the play and pause button works on iOS.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 10:57 AM Post #650 of 1,544
Using FIIO F9 for over a month now with my LG V20, PowerAMP and Viper4Android along with a Forced Mod to put the Quad DAC of V20 in High Impedance mode (more power) and using the balanced cable with FIIO L26 TRRS 3.5 to 2.5 cable.... The results are astonishing!!!! .... Lowered the 8khz by some 3db, using UREI 1178 convolver in Viper4Android.... I can hear even the tiniest detail (even some anomalies which the producer make mistakingly and try to hide in their tracks :D ) .... F9 performs very well above its price level ....

Just curious- why did you use the balanced cable with the LG v20? I have this phone as well and I don't think it has balanced output capability, which means you are not getting balanced sound despite using the FiiO balanced cable.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 11:03 AM Post #651 of 1,544
Just curious- why did you use the balanced cable with the LG v20? I have this phone as well and I don't think it has balanced output capability, which means you are not getting balanced sound despite using the FiiO balanced cable.

I don't know but it's just me or some placebo effect but i think the sound stage is bit widened when using the balanced cable ... everybody says balanced is better than single ended so i decided to use only balanced cable .... the difference could be nothing but i thought what the heck lets use the famous balanced cable instead :D
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 11:14 AM Post #652 of 1,544
That is the same as saying people put Lenco Transmissions in race cars so I am going to put one in my Hyundai Elantra and expect it to suddenly take on the characteristics of a sports car. Trading the cable without having the appropriate parts on either side of it, is not a productive exercise.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 11:20 AM Post #653 of 1,544
I don't know but it's just me or some placebo effect but i think the sound stage is bit widened when using the balanced cable ... everybody says balanced is better than single ended so i decided to use only balanced cable .... the difference could be nothing but i thought what the heck lets use the famous balanced cable instead :D

I haven't noticed this change yet, but I noticed that I like the sound better with the balanced cables :darthsmile:
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 11:29 AM Post #654 of 1,544
Oct 9, 2017 at 8:41 PM Post #655 of 1,544
To balance the book on balanced:

From a discussion I had with someone regarding the X7ii's balanced module:


The specs will actually tell you more than your hearing will. Take the X7ii and its new balanced module.

It'll put 17mW into a 300 ohm load SE but 63 mW into the same load balanced. The voltage is also up. So if you're driving a load which requires a lot of voltage and is reasonably high impedance (eg like an HD650) there will be benefits. Not in the architecture, but in the power.

Look at the same load into an IEM though - say around 16 ohm. SE is 200 mW and balanced is 380 mW. Balanced must be better right? Not really. Balanced will chew the battery quicker, and both outputs would drive practically any IEM into the regions of deafening you. And its the same for the 32ohm load. Both are essentially over-kill.

Now lets look at the real differences - those bits that people make claims on. Remember how balanced is always cleaner, darker, more spacious, wider sound-stage ....... :) Lets look at cleaner first. SNR on SE is 116 dB and on balanced is 119 dB. Both are beyond what we can hear - so no difference. Both have THD measurements at 0.003% = beyond our hearing. You'll get a magnitude more distortion from your earphones. Now the important one - crosstalk (channel separation). SE is 73 dB and balanced is 97 dB. That must make a big difference - right?

I'm going to quote something bookmarked a long time ago:
The FCC minimum channel separation/crosstalk spec for FM Stereo used to be 29.7dB...yes, that's right, 29.7. It had to do with how the signal was generated and handled, but 30 - 40dB wasn't hard to achieve, and 50dB wasn't uncommon.

The bulk of what is perceived as stereo separation happens above 20dB with decreasing detectable improvements above 30dB or so. It's almost impossible to detect separation improvements above 40dB. Localization of a phantom image depends less on channel separation and much more on relative intensity and inter-aural time delay of the sound, and human hearing response at different angles.
So....long answer...separation above 40dB doesn't improve sound quality, below 40dB it slowly degrades, the final separation is equal to the device with the least separation in the system. Once degraded by a device, no device following it can restore separation.
As you can see, SE crosstalk at 73 dB and balanced at 97 dB actually means nothing - we can't hear it.

What essentially happens is two things.
  1. People read the specs, and tell themselves balanced must sound better, and thats what they talk themselves into. In a blind volume matched test, they won't tell a difference.
  2. Most people don't volume match, and we are terrible at volume matching by ear (which is what a lot of people do). Most balanced circuits output a lot more power by design - therefore they are louder. People saying they hear a difference are often simply listening to one louder than the other. And we know louder is perceived as sounding better.
There are two other possibilities for differences:
  • The balanced circuit actually sounds better by design (unlikely given FiiO's expertise)
  • Impedance mismatch can affect frequency response for multi-BA driver set-ups (rarely happens with dynamics). You'll note the 12 ohm (SE) vs 1.7 ohm (bal) output.
Hope some of this makes sense. Most of the balanced discussion on Head-Fi is uninformed. Especially when you're talking IEMs and portable DAPs. It sells units though - so manufacturers have t0 supply what the consumers want.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 10:08 PM Post #656 of 1,544
Just curious- why did you use the balanced cable with the LG v20? I have this phone as well and I don't think it has balanced output capability, which means you are not getting balanced sound despite using the FiiO balanced cable.

I believe the reasoning for this is that the balanced cable is supposedly silver plated while the regular cable is copper. For me, I can tell a very slight difference between my Fiio RC-SE1 (silver plated) vs the stock cable with remote (copper). As I had mentioned in my quick review though, the stock copper cable is very practical and well designed so if I'm on the go, thats the go to choice. If the balanced cable was a silver plated braided SE 3.5mm cable I'd probably use that too once in a while but for cosmetics mainly.
 
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Oct 9, 2017 at 11:52 PM Post #657 of 1,544
To balance the book on balanced:

From a discussion I had with someone regarding the X7ii's balanced module:


The specs will actually tell you more than your hearing will. Take the X7ii and its new balanced module.

It'll put 17mW into a 300 ohm load SE but 63 mW into the same load balanced. The voltage is also up. So if you're driving a load which requires a lot of voltage and is reasonably high impedance (eg like an HD650) there will be benefits. Not in the architecture, but in the power.

Look at the same load into an IEM though - say around 16 ohm. SE is 200 mW and balanced is 380 mW. Balanced must be better right? Not really. Balanced will chew the battery quicker, and both outputs would drive practically any IEM into the regions of deafening you. And its the same for the 32ohm load. Both are essentially over-kill.

Now lets look at the real differences - those bits that people make claims on. Remember how balanced is always cleaner, darker, more spacious, wider sound-stage ....... :) Lets look at cleaner first. SNR on SE is 116 dB and on balanced is 119 dB. Both are beyond what we can hear - so no difference. Both have THD measurements at 0.003% = beyond our hearing. You'll get a magnitude more distortion from your earphones. Now the important one - crosstalk (channel separation). SE is 73 dB and balanced is 97 dB. That must make a big difference - right?

I'm going to quote something bookmarked a long time ago:

As you can see, SE crosstalk at 73 dB and balanced at 97 dB actually means nothing - we can't hear it.

What essentially happens is two things.
  1. People read the specs, and tell themselves balanced must sound better, and thats what they talk themselves into. In a blind volume matched test, they won't tell a difference.
  2. Most people don't volume match, and we are terrible at volume matching by ear (which is what a lot of people do). Most balanced circuits output a lot more power by design - therefore they are louder. People saying they hear a difference are often simply listening to one louder than the other. And we know louder is perceived as sounding better.
There are two other possibilities for differences:
  • The balanced circuit actually sounds better by design (unlikely given FiiO's expertise)
  • Impedance mismatch can affect frequency response for multi-BA driver set-ups (rarely happens with dynamics). You'll note the 12 ohm (SE) vs 1.7 ohm (bal) output.
Hope some of this makes sense. Most of the balanced discussion on Head-Fi is uninformed. Especially when you're talking IEMs and portable DAPs. It sells units though - so manufacturers have t0 supply what the consumers want.

just got my balanced cable for IT03, tried it with the Q1 MKII and im pretty sure i can not tell it appart from the stock cable in a volume matched scenario. ill ran some a/b testing for the review to be more scientific about it. im not shure how this whole thing scales up with meatier amps though.
 
Oct 10, 2017 at 2:51 AM Post #659 of 1,544
https://www.headfonia.com/review-fiio-f9/

I shared the review guys! Have a good read.

Good read Berkhan - I just left you a comment over there. What was your source (I'd like to see the specs)?

Re your comments on balanced:
To me the balanced cable is clearly better to the standard cable. You get better imaging and separation, better staging and better frequency response. If you have the F9, go straight to balanced and don’t look back.

Unless you're using a source with massive impedance difference, then there is no measurable change in frequency response. I know, I've measured them. There is also no change in imaging, staging or separation - if you volume match and blind test. I take it when you were comparing, you didn't volume match? What was the source - and does it have a big difference in impedance between SE and Bal?

Also refer couple of posts above you.
 
Oct 10, 2017 at 7:49 AM Post #660 of 1,544
Good read Berkhan - I just left you a comment over there. What was your source (I'd like to see the specs)?

Re your comments on balanced:


Unless you're using a source with massive impedance difference, then there is no measurable change in frequency response. I know, I've measured them. There is also no change in imaging, staging or separation - if you volume match and blind test. I take it when you were comparing, you didn't volume match? What was the source - and does it have a big difference in impedance between SE and Bal?

Also refer couple of posts above you.

I also thought that the Balanced was better, but didn't test with X7mkii, but I tested the difference between the AMP1 which is SE and AMP3 which is Balanced from iBasso. They changed the whole AMP OP-AMP and power configurations, so there are a ton of variables in there...

I did my best to volume match between balanced and SE listenings, but again, I think that I should try to test with exactly the same AMP module and such to see how much I can hear it.

I think that FiiO provides a different architecutre on Balanced as well, at least it should be slightly different. You hear them exactly the same between Bal and SE when volume matched? I mean, isn't there any slight difference?

For reference, I am not a believer in Balanced > SE, but I believe that changing the AMP structure has an impact on sound.
 

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