[Davesrose]

Well this old Grey's tells you everything about the two muscles of the middle ear. Doesn't get too much into physiology, but from what I remember from my anatomy classes....they are mainly for stabilizing the osicles when there's too much vibration.

http://www.bartleby.com/107/231.html

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Originally Posted by miscreant that is an interesting subject. cant find a decent article thoug...

 

[mirumu]

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Originally Posted by nothing101 im sick of arguing with you people.. i just want to point out that this only effects bass and two the changes in frequency are only slight as is the muting effect from bass rolloff. Our ears as soo well tuned to time that we really hear more accurately in that aspect of sound than we hear any other. (only my opinion so dont have a fit)

The problem is that if the frequency changes were slight (assuming there actually are frequency changes) then the difference in headphone response for the two frequencies is likely to be equally slight in most cases. Some of the Grados like the SR-225 though do seem to dive very quickly in the low frequencies though as you are suggesting. Really, I'd think that if you're correct in thinking that the frequency changes during the decay for certain percussion instruments then maybe you're right about the Grados.

Having said that, I personally don't believe the frequency does change during decay for such instruments, after all something like a piano is really a percussion instrument given that it's a hammer hitting a string and a piano does not exhibit this behavior as far as I can tell. Short of doing some tests or finding some evidence either way there's no way to know.

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our brains will interpret sounds in more comlex ways than we may understand but from what i hear at the extremes i could be fooled into thinking that 20hz is 30 hz but just a bit less loud.

Well, I've not heard a note I knew to be 20Hz, but I have heard both a 30Hz tone and a 40Hz tone and the two were very clearly different. At the other extreme, 19Khz and 20Khz were also noticeably different to me. However I'd expect you are probably correct in thinking the brains interpretation of things will come into it since it would make sense that the frequencies used in human language and survival will be given special preference in the brain.

 

[mirumu]

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Originally Posted by Davesrose But decay has nothing to do with high or low frequencies

You are essentially correct, although in practice bass frequencies tend to decay at a slower rate, I'd guess it's because higher frequencies are dampened easier within materials. After all, bass notes travel better than high ones through walls, floors, etc.

 

[crazyfrenchman27]

I don't really agree with any of this.

It's just wrong.

-Matt

 

[Febs]

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Originally Posted by Matt_Carter Your theory makes sense and im glade to see some real logical thinkers here instead of just know it all's.

His theory is logical thinking in the same way that this is logical thinking:

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BEDEVERE: Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch. * * * BEDEVERE: Tell me. What do you do with witches? VILLAGER #2: Burn! VILLAGER #1: Burn! CROWD: Burn! Burn them up! Burn!... BEDEVERE: And what do you burn apart from witches? * * * VILLAGER #2: Wood! BEDEVERE: So, why do witches burn? [pause] VILLAGER #3: B--... 'cause they're made of... wood? BEDEVERE: Good! Heh heh. * * * BEDEVERE: So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood? VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her. BEDEVERE: Ah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone? VILLAGER #1: Oh, yeah. RANDOM: Oh, yeah. True. Uhh... BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water? VILLAGER #1: No. No. VILLAGER #2: No, it floats! It floats! * * * BEDEVERE: What also floats in water? * * * ARTHUR: A duck! CROWD: Oooh. BEDEVERE: Exactly. So, logically... VILLAGER #1: If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood. BEDEVERE: And therefore? VILLAGER #2: A witch!

 

[Febs]

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Originally Posted by nothing101 our brains will interpret sounds in more comlex ways than we may understand but from what i hear at the extremes i could be fooled into thinking that 20hz is 30 hz but just a bit less loud.

Here are some easy ways to test your theory.

1. Play a note on the piano. Then hit the same note more softly. If your theory were true, then the two notes would have different pitches because they were played at different volumes.

2. Play a middle C on the piano and keep the key pressed so that the note sustains. As the note decays, periodically hit (without sustaining) the B that is a semitone below that middle C. If your theory were true, at some point in the decay of the sustained C, the pitch would become equal to that of the B immediately below it.

3. If you don't have a piano, listen to the end of "A Day in the Life" from the Beatles' Sgt. Peppers album. The song ends with an "E Major" chord played simultaneously on two pianos by four different people. While the chord was decaying, the recording engineer, Geoff Emerick, manually rode the recording levels higher and higher. The result is a chord that takes almost a full minute to decay. If your theory were true, the pitch of that chord would fall as the chord decays.

None of these things happens. Your theory is wrong.

 

[miscreant]

and be careful - the theory can be proven right by mistake if all the science work make you yawn from boredom - yawning lowers the pitch big time.

 

[Purgatos]

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Originally Posted by Febs His theory is logical thinking in the same way that this is logical thinking:

Damn, I was hoping that was going to be a Black Adder reference.

 

[Steve999]

Now this is an interesting thread. There's a lot of interesting thinking on an interesting subject.

The doppler effect can make the perceived pitch go up and down as, for example, a train or fire truck whooshes by:

http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/lin...er_effect.html

It's certainly not in contradiction of the laws of thermodynamics or any such thing. But on the other hand I certainly wouldn't expect this to take place in a home stereo or headphones, unless your stereo is blaring like a freight train and whizzing by at 50 miles per hour.


Also, if you hit a note hard on the piano, guitar, drum, and other similar instruments, the pitch will start out just a little higher and then settle down to a steady very slightly lower pitch. You can hear this if you listen closely while tuning a guitar, for example, or using an electric guitar tuner and watching the pitch start just a little high and then settle down to the correct pitch. But you are talking just shades of a pitch, to someone whose ears are sensitive to fractions of note intervals, not going up and down from one note (half step) to another. And this has little or nothing to do with what goes on with headphones or a home stereo.


Headphones and speakers do have resonances that I think could be subjecively perceived as a lack of "decay." The extreme of this could be one of those kids' mechanical echo microphones where a spring-loaded chamber creates a reverb/echo type effect. Also, if there's just plain too much bass, that could mask what's going on in the highs, resulting not hearing what's going in the highs well enough, which you might subjectively perceive as a lack of decay.

As far as a headphone or speaker having too fast of a decay, that is hard for me to explain or imagine. You want a lack of resonances and a smooth frequency response. Maybe if the highs were too emphasized things would sound a little too sharp or crisp, resulting in what could be pereived as a too fast decay. You'd hear an emphasis on sounds in the uper end of the audio spectrum, that are sharp and crisp and go away fast. That would really be a frequency response problem.


Just my random thoughts....

 

[robm321]

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Originally Posted by Davesrose I'm sure one of the reasons why Grado doesn't have as much bass is that they're supra-aural as well. Bass just doesn't have as far to travel and reverberate. I would think modding them to circumaural cans would bring out some bass too. I guess it's finding that right balance of making the cans recessed for bass, but not so recessed that you don't lose treble.

The HP-1,2s have the right amount of bass. The GS-1000 and PS-1 have a bit too much bass. One uses giant bowls, one uses bowls, and the other uses flats.

 

[Davesrose]

Yeah....that gets into thermodynamics....ie frequency only changes when sound encounters another, denser body of air or an object. But we're talking about headphones here!

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Originally Posted by mirumu You are essentially correct, although in practice bass frequencies tend to decay at a slower rate, I'd guess it's because higher frequencies are dampened easier within materials. After all, bass notes travel better than high ones through walls, floors, etc.

 

[imported_Matt_Carter]

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Originally Posted by Davesrose But decay has nothing to do with high or low frequencies

What you talking about, lows and highs decay at different rates...

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Originally Posted by crazyfrenchman27 I don't really agree with any of this. It's just wrong. -Matt

Watch out guys we got a genius here.

How the hell we suppose to progress with so many ignorant close minded know-it-alls.

Hail Hitler

 

[Davesrose]

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Originally Posted by Matt_Carter What you talking about, lows and highs decay at different rates... How the hell we suppose to progress with so many ignorant close minded know-it-alls.

Well everyone else is saying that decay is the highs and lows of the amplitude of a soundwave: so who's the crass, close minded one?

 

[Ingo]

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Originally Posted by Matt_Carter What you talking about, lows and highs decay at different rates... Watch out guys we got a genius here. How the hell we suppose to progress with so many ignorant close minded know-it-alls. Hail Hitler

Good...night. Did you burn your tounge on some extremely hot coffee this morning? Did your dog get eaten by a large bird of prey? Oh, wait, maybe you were at some FPS smack-talk forum just before you logged on here to post the above message and forgot that you were posting on head-fi.

 

[mirumu]

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Originally Posted by Davesrose Yeah....that gets into thermodynamics....ie frequency only changes when sound encounters another, denser body of air or an object. But we're talking about headphones here!

Sure, but headphone diaphragms and driver housings are not immune from these effects any more than any other materials.