[nothing101]

Ive been looking at the frequency response graphs at headroom and i think ive realised what is the cause of unnaturally quick highs.

As a note looses energy and decays it gets a longer wavelength so when the lower frequency sounds are muted the last part of the decay of bass is muted and this creates a fast feel that grados have. This is becase grados ARE badly extended in the lows. i think it is deliberate.

More evidence to back up this theory is that people have said that the agk 501 has impact like grado and what do you know, its bass is like quieter grado bass in terms of frequency response graphs.

My conclusion in this is that a bit of roll off in bass might be a good thing as it will appear to make the bass as fast as the absolute sound even though thats impossible. Too much of this and your headphone may sound bassless and too fast in bass. Too much low end bass will also make the headphone sound slower.

I think its all about balance

 

[catscratch]

Well, the SR-404 has some of the deepest bass that I've ever heard, extending to 7hz according to the official stats, and yet it's extremely quick. As far as dynamics go, the Qualia extends further down than just about anything - 5hz I think - and it's almost as quick as an electrostat. On the balanced armature front, the E500 is very quick, unnaturally so in fact, though not nearly as unnaturally quick as the Ety's, and yet it also has the deepest bass that balanced armatures have been able to produce.

I know nothing of the mechanics of a headphone's design, so I can't really argue constructively here. But, according to my ears, there are examples to the contrary

 

[Davesrose]

Actually, this is why I haven't been too impressed with my 501s....Even their treble seems to roll off......large soundstage, not too impactful all around. Believe it's mainly those huge earpads that are making the driver so recessed. Gives it an unusual soundstage. My only mod might be to take out some of its padding. So I've assumed since Grados are so much brighter, they must accentuate treble regions. Treble will always seem fast, since it's hitting our eardrum at a faster rate then bass.....also bass is reflecting all over the headphone as well.

Though it is interesting to compare the frequency range of the 580 and 501. Even though the 580 is considered bass heavy/ from 20hz to just past 2khz, it's almost identical to the 501. They share the same bass and mids....the 580s taper off in the treble. The 501s are flatter. If the driver was closer to my ear, then I think I'd like it's detail better. Think those pads are just too big. I like my 595s over my 501s for opera because I notice more detail in the treble. with it's frequency range, it's not tappering off the way the 580 does.....it actually has several spikes in the higher frequency, so it must be adding to the "fun" feeling of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nothing101 More evidence to back up this theory is that people have said that the agk 501 has impact like grado and what do you know, its bass is like quieter grado bass in terms of frequency response graphs. My conclusion in this is that a bit of roll off in bass might be a good thing as it will appear to make the bass as fast as the absolute sound even though thats impossible. Too much of this and your headphone may sound bassless and too fast in bass. Too much low end bass will also make the headphone sound slower. I think its all about balance

 

[miscreant]

i've noticed that philips hp890s are enhancing the bass freq's coming from outside - cars, doorjamming etc, grados dont do such thing. so that gives the impression that the slower but bigger bass is depending more on the build of the headphones, not the drivers. grado low's are audible but not enhanced by its physical construction. would be interesting to find out what are grado drivers capable inside some bass boosting phones. has anybody tried such modding?

 

[Azure]

Are you confusing extension with quantity? My SA5k's had excellent bass extension, as do my SR-404s, and I think everybody can agree that both are rather fast headphones.

 

[Davesrose]

I'm sure one of the reasons why Grado doesn't have as much bass is that they're supra-aural as well. Bass just doesn't have as far to travel and reverberate. I would think modding them to circumaural cans would bring out some bass too. I guess it's finding that right balance of making the cans recessed for bass, but not so recessed that you don't lose treble.

 

[miscreant]

confusing extension&quantity..?
is this correct:
"if there are larger quantity of extreme low bass, the phones have more bass extension"
"the bass extension is measured by the quantity of the low freq's"
if not then i've misunderstood something...
..i am not trying to debate with my poor english, just understand the vocabulary.

 

[wang228]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nothing101 As a note looses energy and decays it gets a longer wavelength so when the lower frequency sounds are muted the last part of the decay of bass is muted and this creates a fast feel that grados have. This is becase grados ARE badly extended in the lows. i think it is deliberate.

If you are right, then, as a note decays, it's no longer the same note.... This doesn't make sense to me. I never heard a C note becomes a lower A note when it fades (except of course when intentionally done by a musician).

But i agree, bassless phones generally sound 'fast' to me. I think this has more to do with psychoacoustics. Or perhaps, bassless phones have a better transient response in general... i don't know.

 

[maarek99]

I would like to see those frequency response graphs when someone touts a can as "extended in treble or bass".

 

[Davesrose]

Is decay maybe a change in amplitude of the soundwave......not frequency? Thinking that would be. Since it's wavelength that determines what the note is. The wavelength is not changing....it's amplitude of the wave....I think

Quote:

Originally Posted by wang228 If you are right, then, as a note decays, it's no longer the same note.... This doesn't make sense to me. I never heard a C note becomes a lower A note when it fades (except of course when intentionally done by a musician). But i agree, bassless phones generally sound 'fast' to me. I think this has more to do with psychoacoustics. Or perhaps, bassless phones have a better transient response in general... i don't know.

 

[Purgatos]

Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Are you implying that treble notes become bass notes because they get a longer wavelength as they decay? This makes no sense. Please elaborate.

 

[nothing101]

i dont mean that if a headphone has rolled off bass it is fast. Electrostats and iems dont face much innestia since their drivers are light. This also makes them fast. My main reference here is grado.

I think the 501s have great impact with snaredrums but thats about it. Compared to stax their bass is weak and slow. Even though stax bass isnt meant to be fast either.

What im saying is that a tiny bit off bass rolloff would appear to make the headphone faster. Since no headphone can use a driver that doesnt weigh anything, a little bit of this might be welcome.

stax might be an exeption since the diaphram weighs very very little.

 

[wang228]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose Is decay maybe a change in amplitude of the soundwave......not frequency? Thinking that would be. Since it's wavelength that determines what the note is. The wavelength is not changing....it's amplitude of the wave....I think

yup, that's what decay is i think. But correct decay in audio reproduction, to me, means only that a phone play softer and softer as the analog signal fades. So theoretically, a phone that does decay well, is one that responds quickly and linearly to the change in electrical signal.

 

[watchluvr4ever]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nothing101 More evidence to back up this theory is that people have said that the agk 501 has impact like grado and what do you know, its bass is like quieter grado bass in terms of frequency response graphs.

My K501's had bass but certainly no attack/impact like Grado's.

 

[mirumu]

nothing101, generally speaking unless the pitch is being intentionally lowered during decay, the wavelength does not increase the way you are suggesting, just the amplitude. Harmonics will not necessarily decay at the same rate though and since bass frequencies will tend to take longer to decay, there may still be an effect similar to what you are thinking. I suspect it would not be as pronounced or obvious as you think though since highs are not going to have significant bass harmonics.

I may be off base here but I suspect when some talk of "unnaturally fast decay" they are perhaps mistaking the effect of room acoustics sustaining a note for the actual decay of the note. Having been part of a musical family all my life I've had a lot of "up close" experience with real instruments and have been to many larger performances as well. I'm sure I'm not saying anything anyone would disagree with here but the room used makes a huge difference and notes will tend to drag on much longer given lots of reflections. I'm not saying these room effects are a bad things, that'll come down to taste. Personally though I've yet to hear any headphone with something I'd consider unnaturally fast decay but I've heard plenty with unnaturally slow decay.