[Zanth]

You could be right markl IF we were talking about the setup you mentioned. In fact...we are comparing SACD and Redbook players that retail for 2k+ each and are made be the same company. In fact this is not my first experience with this either. So no jumping in claiming its some backwards wet behind the ears Chinese manufacturer who doesn't know what they are doing.

This is not a new concept and I have done research into other companies who have done similar things....

Gilette and the Mach 3 blades anyone? Try shaving with a new Excel or Excel II blade and compare. The Mach III BLOWS it away. But...when I did my test, I had a few packs of earlier run Excel II blades and they were very comparable to the Mach III blades, but SMOKED the new Excel II. Why? Because they had downgraded the hardness and sharpness of the blades so they would really be killed by Mach III.

It was quiet, and over time...but it did happen. I would NEVER put it past Sony to do this, nor any other company trying to get SACD going. If you head on over to AA you will read a plethora of comments regarding the fine ability of Redbook to play Redbook but SACD seems to come up short when playing this format.

The one point I will give you is that the technology is new. But even so...this technology (New as it is) is SUPPOSED to be ALREADY better than Redbook. If you are claiming that it is new thus not that great yet...then what the heck are they trying to push on us?

I will never personally go for these new hi-rez formats. The next format I move to will be vinyl.

No copy protection, no fuss, no dac upgrades...technology that has been around for +100 years....and media that outsells SACD and DVD-A combined.

 

[markl]

No, I'm saying we've had some 30 years experience producing PCM Redbook-only DACs, and maybe 5 producing Redbook/SACD/DSD DACs. At first, these DACs were made by one manufacturer only--Sony, because no one could build them for them (333ES, 777ES, SCD-1). Is Sony a DAC expert? No. As you know, all the major (and minor) SACDP and CDP makers source their DACs from a handful of companies. Sony's newer players (555ES, XA777ES etc.) use DACs sourced from Burr-Brown, which are of higher quality than the original Sony DACs, but as such are still representative of Burr-Brown's first generation attempt at making a DAC for an SACD player, I expect they will get better and DACs will continue to improve apace.

The point is, with these original Sony DACs (and today's first and second-generation aftermarket DACs), both Redbook and SACD are at their mercy, neither format will sound its best, they are both hampered, again the signal goes through a virtually identical circuit path. So, there's still an obvious jump between CD and SACD.

I'm talking about comparing two equally priced players, one CD-only the other SACDP. I'm arguing that the SACDP has more expensive digital section and more expensive analog section, which means the Redbook only player will have advantages in quality of these sections and the components in them at equal price points.

Did Redbook CD sound half as good as it does today when it came out in the early 80s? No. Matering technology and DAC technology have come a LONG way since then. IMO, we have only just scratched the surface of what SACD can sound like and will sound like 20 years hence.

 

[theaudiohobby]

Quote:

Originally posted by Zanth It was quiet, and over time...but it did happen. I would NEVER put it past Sony to do this, nor any other company trying to get SACD going. If you head on over to AA you will read a plethora of comments regarding the fine ability of Redbook to play Redbook but SACD seems to come up short when playing this format....

Yes the scenario you paint can happen, however it is interesting to note that some German magazines are reporting that an SACDP retailing at a 1/3 less than the Wadia 86X series beat it at playing redbook CDs. Secondly on the issue of software, the quality of CDs has improved tremendously because of the trickle down effect of high resolution recording technologies. It is interesting that in the Far East, DSD CDs are now all the rage and these for obvious reasons compete more effectively against SACDs.

Quote:

Originally posted by Zanth ...The next format I move to will be vinyl. No copy protection, no fuss, no dac upgrades...technology that has been around for +100 years....and media that outsells SACD and DVD-A combined.

I think you should check your facts more correctly the sales of SACDs + DVDA combined actually exceeds that of Vinyl last year? Why because the sales of SACDs (Hybrid + Single Layer) alone surpassed that of vinyl last year.

 

[stuartr]

Quote:

Originally posted by theaudiohobby I think you should check your facts more correctly the sales of SACDs + DVDA combined actually exceeds that of Vinyl last year? Why because the sales of SACDs (Hybrid + Single Layer) alone surpassed that of vinyl last year.

Well, what about your facts? Do you have a source for this? I am not saying your wrong, I am just curious. I do remember reading in stereophile a few months back about new vinyl outselling new SACD, but, I could not find it. It may or may not include hybrids, which shouldn't really count (unless marketed on their SACDness...the Rolling Stones one or whatever should not count, as it was viewed by the public as a CD first, and an SACD second).

 

[theaudiohobby]

Quote:

Originally posted by stuartr Well, what about your facts? Do you have a source for this? I am not saying your wrong, I am just curious. I do remember reading in stereophile a few months back about new vinyl outselling new SACD, but, I could not find it. It may or may not include hybrids, which shouldn't really count (unless marketed on their SACDness...the Rolling Stones one or whatever should not count, as it was viewed by the public as a CD first, and an SACD second).

If you do not count the hybrids or more correctly the Trogan horses

the total number dwindles dramatically. The SACD sales figures rose dramatically towards the end of last year owing to a number of successful blockbuster releases. Sting's reissues sold over 650,000 copies in UK alone. Over here in the UK, Most of the music shops now shelf the SACDs with the CDs. In fact one store here, MVC, actually shelfs DVDAs alongside with CDs.

As per specific figures, following on from the msnbc article the shipments of LPs was in the region of 600,000+. The top 5 SACDs alone shipped in excess of 437,000 copies last year, it is safe to say that that total SACD shipments exceeded that of LPs.

EDITED: I have goofed a bit the figures in the msnbc are 1/2 yearly figures.

 

[marios_mar]

questions

1.are there more titles on CD or on Vinyl ? Just wondering.

2.and are there more new releases on SACD or vinyl

 

[kentamcolin]

I'd be curious about this as well. My guess is that there are more "new" releases on SACD. Most new vinyl I've seen is actually re-released or remastered from original recordings.

 

[Geek]

If you are committed to the digital realm, a really high end CDP is going to be your best bet because there are far more recordings available on redbook (FAR FAR MORE), the sound quality will be incredible, and there aren't really any SACD players in the price class range of great CD players yet, due to the fact that SACD is not widely accepted enough yet to merit such a niche market. SACD is still being peddled to the middle class of audio listeners, those that want high fidelity but have no clue what is truly the absolute sound (no reference point).

In a nutshell, CD is my recommendation, but please, if you are starting from scratch with no recordings, vinyl is even better yet if you are looking for sound quality. SACD sounds too grainy at the $200-300 point to compete with a $2,000 CDP, let alone a vinyl rig.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[kartik]

Theaudiohobby,
Stop blocking the amp in your avatar will ya!
Since you have 2 superb SACD players, what is your opinion of their performance in redbook? I heard at the hi-rez asylum that your DSD player, the Sharp, took one and overcame the ARC CD2. If this true then the thought that comparably priced SACD players are inferior in redbool playback as compared to CD players, is fallacious.

 

[theaudiohobby]

Quote:

Originally posted by Geek If you are committed to the digital realm, a really high end CDP is going to be your best bet because there are far more recordings available on redbook (FAR FAR MORE), the sound quality will be incredible, and there aren't really any SACD players in the price class range of great CD players yet, due to the fact that SACD is not widely accepted enough yet to merit such a niche market. SACD is still being peddled to the middle class of audio listeners, those that want high fidelity but have no clue what is truly the absolute sound (no reference point).. .. Cheers, Geek

Geek,

??? What are the really high end CDPs?

, some of the the most expensive digital you can buy today are actually multiformat. Or are you saying that Accuphase, Aero Capitale, Classe, DCS, Gryphon, Lindemann, Luxman and Teac are peddling their flagships to the middle class of audio listeners with no clue? I accept the fact there far more CDs released than SACDs, but most SACDP flagships replay CD on par with the best CDPs and in a few cases better. What is the reference point or the absolute sound?

EDIT: Add a new question about reference point.
EDIT: gramatical corrections

 

[Zanth]

Well, I read the article in stereophile which stated Vinyl was whooping the new hi-rez formats. One can't include hybrids accurately however since many are purchased for redbook only. For example, this summer I purchased the new remaster of Pink Floyd's DSOTM yet I only use its redbook layer...


So would my sale go in the SACD column or the Redbook column?

Regardless...with rumours of SACD II trickling through the lines of gossip...I still stand firm with the "I'll buy vinyl before I buy hi-rez." In fact, I would wager quite a bit of capital that digital as we know it will soon be transformed to SS media and/or immediately downloaded to hard-drive media centers. The future for digital is PC-->DAC.

 

[Alex Altorfer]

Zanth,

Quote:

Originally posted by Zanth The future for digital is PC-->DAC.

This might be true but only over my dead body. I like enjoying music while relaxing on the couch, not in front of a computer.

Cheers,
Alex

 

[Zanth]

No need to be anywhere NEAR a computer. That is the thing...DAC to preamp right? that is it that is all...

Volume control sitting in your chair relaxing...remote to cycle through near your entire collection and all made possible by the highest quality dacs one can afford. Did I mention you COULD do this wirelessly as well? Gates already has a super system like this installed. On a smaller scale so does my ex-roommate.

 

[MoLtoSoLo]

I think the future is computer digital source to digital amp.
No DAC, no preamp, pure digital until your speaker woofer.

 

[Zanth]

I agree though I think that is still some time off until digital amps can get up to speed of the analogues.