mark_h
Headphoneus Supremus
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- Jan 5, 2008
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It's answering the question you asked about frequency response and eardrum pressure and the effects of 'physiological noise at low frequencies' in IEMs
"Charts are for nerds"
No, they just don't lie and aren't affected by the subjectiveness of the listener. Surely that's kind of like saying "get off the whole science thing, the earth is flat". Empirical data provided by charts is kind of what I'm after as I'm slightly sick of everyone just talking about how treble lacks sparkle, mids aren't forward enough, bass lacks punch, I mean, how many words can you come up with to describe such things? Surely, a flat frequency response, is what's desired. A deviation from this is colouring the sound against how the producer wanted it to be. Please, tell me what I'm missing here.. what is the "tactile effect of bass"? Airflow/vibration?
I don't believe producers produce music expecting everyone to listen to it on a perfectly neutral and balanced system. Actually, if I were to bet, I'd bet they expect most people to be listening to it on some of the crappiest sound systems possible.
http://saha.searle.northwestern.edu/bibcat/pdf/1012.pdf
It IS about tastes. No matter how well it is tuned many think (me included) a single BA has severe limitations in realistically and adequately covering the entire frequency response curve while creating great realism and dynamics. It's much more than marketing.
I've never heard any "live" music sound anything like what I hear with an Etymotic earphone but I might just have bad ears.
That's not very helpful. I'm asking for a technical explanation as to why other earphones are considered better, because surely you could just EQ one with a totally flat response to your taste? What other technical factors make other IEMs superior? I'm sure there are some, I just don't know them.
"Surely, a flat frequency response, is what's desired." - This is a false claim/assumption. Desired from who? Consumers? Surely natural food is desired from consumers, with no taste beyond what is naturally occurring, as mother nature intended. Why would anyone ever want something to have more taste than it has naturally? Why do some people prefer bananas to strawberries? Science should be able to tell us. Sir, can you please explain to me scientifically why people prefer bananas to stawberries? Why do some people like MSG on their food? Come on, man.
Charts, like statistics, do not tell the whole story. Have you ever watched sports? Have you ever seen an athlete with a good stats and an athlete with bad stats? Some things cannot be measured. One may have good stats but suck in crunch time. One may have bad stats but come through in the clutch. Where do you see leadership or the affect on teammates in statistics? Does it measure how he might coordinate his team or lead them to make changes during a game? How do you measure the width of headstage in frequency response? How do you measure how wide it sounds with frequency response? Or anything?
"A deviation from this is clouring the sound against how the producer wanted it to be." Again, false. Do you have something to back this up? I don't believe producers produce music expecting everyone to listen to it on a perfectly neutral and balanced system. Actually, if I were to bet, I'd bet they expect most people to be listening to it on some of the crappiest sound systems possible. Walk around and tell me how many people you see listening to music on ibuds or some crappy $10 JVC gummies.
People in general, like excitement. It just might explain why movies are a more popular form of entertainment than documentaries. What is more realistic is not necessarily what people prefer.
"Surely, a flat frequency response, is what's desired." - This is a false claim/assumption. Desired from who? Consumers? Surely natural food is desired from consumers, with no taste beyond what is naturally occurring, as mother nature intended. Why would anyone ever want something to have more taste than it has naturally? Why do some people prefer bananas to strawberries? Science should be able to tell us. Sir, can you please explain to me scientifically why people prefer bananas to stawberries? Why do some people like MSG on their food? Come on, man.
Charts, like statistics, do not tell the whole story. Have you ever watched sports? Have you ever seen an athlete with a good stats and an athlete with bad stats? Some things cannot be measured. One may have good stats but suck in crunch time. One may have bad stats but come through in the clutch. Where do you see leadership or the affect on teammates in statistics? Does it measure how he might coordinate his team or lead them to make changes during a game? How do you measure the width of headstage in frequency response? How do you measure how wide it sounds with frequency response? Or anything?
"A deviation from this is clouring the sound against how the producer wanted it to be." Again, false. Do you have something to back this up? I don't believe producers produce music expecting everyone to listen to it on a perfectly neutral and balanced system. Actually, if I were to bet, I'd bet they expect most people to be listening to it on some of the crappiest sound systems possible. Walk around and tell me how many people you see listening to music on ibuds or some crappy $10 JVC gummies.
People in general, like excitement. It just might explain why movies are a more popular form of entertainment than documentaries. What is more realistic is not necessarily what people prefer.
Charts don't lie, people do. The charts are, as you say, empirical data that is provided (assuming their accuracy). However, that's where it ends. The interpretation of such a chart, to date, is 100% subjective. Why? Because the terms used describe the headphones through the chart is based on subjective definitions. Sparkle, sweetness, impact, texture all hold subjective definitions, not objective. They are based on ear perceptions, not chart. There is a correlation between many things in audio, but none of them work 100%; they stand as correlations. Every single subjective definition needs to be reworked to fit both the subjective ear as well as the objective. Saying that boomy bass is a bump around the lower bass is just half the story. We have no relativity to any other frequency range. So when a person states that they have objective evidence that headphone X is punchy, it means it fits the correlation; it's not objective, it's subjective. Kind of like how you can skew numbers to match the information you want to portray. "Objective" measurements are as bad as subjective.
That first part makes no sense to me. Take for example, the 10k region, these are "sparkle" regions because they are fundamental regions which will cymbal crashes lie in. There is no subjective in what the 10k region does (boost it and cymbal crashes do indeed sparke more), if there's somehow a disagreement on what "sparkle" is, it's the terms themselves that need to be fixed, the effect of the 10k region remains objective. Sparkle is fine but terms like "sweetness" are useless..imo and just cause confusion. If used/read correctly, FR graphs are an amazing tool, just note of transients/decay extension and you've got a pretty concrete idea of what to expect.
I do also want to add in that the perceptual graphs, the compensated ones, may or may not work. They run on one assumption, that the human perceptive hearing of sound pressure changes (dB) is linear. This is a huge assumption which takes a lot of these compensated graphs far back. This is one of the things that can make graphs look 100% off when it comes to actual perception vs compensated to perception. So, when looking at graphs, it's important to take raw data into consideration, not the compensated (often time colored).
Compensations are based on resonants of the ear canal and concha, make a an IEM flat purely on it's raw data and it will sound veiled because of it [ML Mikros/Etymotic ER2] and it be a horrible idea to use a db changes of volume to tune and IEM, read this from Toole.
[size=x-small]"The curves tell us that different frequencies at the same sound level may be perceived as having different loudness. This is not a message that anything needs correcting. We live with these characteristics from birth, and they are a part of everything we hear, whether it is live or reproduced. That is why audio equipment must exhibit flat-frequency responses—uniform output at all audible frequencies—so the sounds we perceive have the correct relative loudness at all frequencies, assuming they are reproduced at realistic sound levels."[/size]
So it's true, the graph doesn't lie, but people can. An objective graph can also impact a persons interpretation of a headphone.
To answer your question in the OP though, there are a lot of factors that determine the bass of an IEM. Seal is the largest one that is not only determined by insertion depth, but tip selection as well. Much research has come along with the missing 6 dB as well that states that the human ear naturally creates some sort of amplification in the sub-bass areas by about 6 dB. When the IEM is inserted, it bypasses these areas. This could very well be the reason why people har it anemic.
Not exclusive to IEMs, headphones in general. No matter what, they can't be perceived as speakers, best a manufactuer could to is maximize extension just as Sony did with EX1000 and Audeze in the LCD2.
To answer your second question in the OP, this is quite personal. What we really deal with are 3 bars to match by (maybe more). The first one, accuracy. This deals with how tonally accurate (tonally neutral) an IEM will be. In the case of W4 vs Etymotic here, the Etymotic will win hands down. This neutrality is really second to none in the IEM business.
In terms of IEMs, there are some that are just as neutral as the ER4 series, modded UE9000-to ER4S, RE272 to ER4P.
The second bar would be musicality, the ability to reproduce musical aspects. The idea of this runs further from neutrality as a non-neutral headphone can indeed be "musically" accurate (IE producing all the aspects of music, a song). Basically what happens is that the IEMs will be tested against the subjective descriptors listed in the glossary of terms, if it can reproduce all of them without overdoing it (turning it into a negative aspect), then it becomes "musically" accurate. Many neutral IEMs are not "accurate" in this sense, but can be. In the case of the Etymotic (HF2, I don't have an ER4) vs W4, the W4 takes the win slightly in terms of musical reproduction.
I think a lot of the "musicality" aspect has to do with the bass extension depths which the Etymotics lack a bit (and a lot of BAs) [the last HK research backs this up].
That first part makes no sense to me. Take for example, the 10k region, these are "sparkle" regions because they are fundamental regions which will cymbal crashes lie in. There is no subjective in what the 10k region does (boost it and cymbal crashes do indeed sparke more), if there's somehow a disagreement on what "sparkle" is, it's the terms themselves that need to be fixed, the effect of the 10k region remains objective. Sparkle is fine but terms like "sweetness" are useless..imo and just cause confusion. If used/read correctly, FR graphs are an amazing tool, just note of transients/decay extension and you've got a pretty concrete idea of what to expect.
Compensations are based on resonants of the ear canal and concha, make a an IEM flat purely on it's raw data and it will sound veiled because of it [ML Mikros/Etymotic ER2] and it be a horrible idea to use a db changes of volume to tune and IEM, read this from Toole.
[size=x-small]"The curves tell us that different frequencies at the same sound level may be perceived as having different loudness. This is not a message that anything needs correcting. We live with these characteristics from birth, and they are a part of everything we hear, whether it is live or reproduced. That is why audio equipment must exhibit flat-frequency responses—uniform output at all audible frequencies—so the sounds we perceive have the correct relative loudness at all frequencies, assuming they are reproduced at realistic sound levels."[/size]
Not exclusive to IEMs, headphones in general. No matter what, they can't be perceived as speakers, best a manufactuer could to is maximize extension just as Sony did with EX1000 and Audeze in the LCD2.
In terms of IEMs, there are some that are just as neutral as the ER4 series, modded UE9000-to ER4S, RE272 to ER4P.
I think a lot of the "musicality" aspect has to do with the bass extension depths which the Etymotics lack a bit (and a lot of BAs) [the last HK research backs this up].
Many neutral IEMs are not "accurate" in this sense, but can be. In the case of the Etymotic (HF2, I don't have an ER4) vs W4, the W4 takes the win slightly in terms of musical reproduction.
Good points made all around. The ER4S has been the most enjoyable iem for me. You'll have to try it to find out for yourself how you'll perceive it. If you take technical ability conveyed through graphs and measurements seriously, and you find flat or neutral to be the most desirable goal for audio reproduction, then you will likely prefer the ER4S. Many people don't understand or care about those things and consequently prefer other iems. But even people who do understand or care about measurements can prefer other iems, |joker| being one of them. Personal preference is the overriding theme here.
But even people who do understand or care about measurements can prefer other iems, |joker| being one of them. Personal preference is the overriding theme here.