EQ cure all?
Dec 29, 2014 at 9:12 PM Post #106 of 133
  I've always thought that if a theoretical comet hit the theoretical 'audiophile' planet, it's the guys listening to music, and perfectly enjoying it through their $99 FiiO X1s* with built-in EQ function and $120 Audio Technica M50s who will "inherit the earth". 

Most will eventually get the Darwin award due to incurable Pedantry.

*If they listen to a hard-to drive orthodynamic, they should use their line-out to an Objective 2. 
biggrin.gif


I have a x1, and a o2. so plz forget about all the other useless stuff I own and put me on the survivor's list. plz!!! I'm not old enough to go extinct.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 8:30 AM Post #107 of 133
Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
My intention for inviting him to a listening session was not to verify whether the test works, or whether my claim is valid. I simply wanted him to experience something himself, and then he can form his own opinions regarding that, which would, of course, apply only to him.

 
Again, what is the point of a listening session if you do not consider subjective impressions to be reliable anyway, as they are subject to expectation bias and other issues ? Or does that only matter for ABX tests (= double standards) ?
 
Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I think it is worth it to consider what context we are looking at. Depending on the measurement conditions, you are essentially looking at perfect cases (purely resistive loads), and that's just not realistic. Real headphones have capacitance and inductance as well as resistance. Even planar magnetic headphones have capacitance from the cable, and that's unavoidable. Distortion figures may be higher (and become audible) when such elements are introduced, but manufacturers would rarely show that in any marketing material regarding their products. Whatever the case, the fact still remains that these gears give different numbers, and thus should inherently be different in how they reproduce the signal. Nitpicking the objective differences and then applying subjective impressions from... other gears is not really a good way to gauge the performance of an amp. If you have ABX the thing and found that there is no difference, then that's one thing, but looking at published distortion specs and then go "it's not audible" is gross over-simplification, because you're still ignoring other factors like what headphones will be driven by the amplifier, what DAC will feed into it, power conditions, listener's experience and expertise, etc...

 
Amplifiers can and already have been measured with real loads. Most of the time, increased distortion and other issues occur because of too high output impedance, the load having much lower than nominal impedance at some frequencies, or poor amplifier design (such as instability due to cable capacitance). All the other factors you have listed can be taken into account with more detailed measurements.
 
In any case, if you consider both measurements and ABX tests inherently unreliable, then what do you suggest for evaluating gear ?
 
Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
If we have to start nitpicking which ABX test is "proper" and which is "not proper", then it makes the test all the more unreliable as a tool to show the true differences between gears.

 
So, the fact that it is possible to do something (in this case, an ABX test) incorrectly makes it entirely unreliable and irrelevant ? Interesting logic, and it could be applied to just about everything in life.
 
Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
And what audiophiles claim are really their own business.

 
It is, too bad their claims are quite often presented as facts. For those who do not agree with them, it is also their business to disagree, and explain why.
 
Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Too bad the link to those statistics have since gone down (likely because I'm sure they would cause some uproar in the audiophile community, knowing ABX doesn't necessarily verify certain things), so I can't show them to you.

 
And I have seen unicorns the last night, but unfortunately there were no witnesses and the pictures I have taken were accidentally deleted.
 
Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I'd agree, but even with the conditions taken into account and all, there have been people who can demonstrate a difference. Like Tyll was able to tell the difference between a burned-in K701 and a fresh K701 even though he measured their differences to be very minuscule.

 
It depends on the definition of "miniscule". A 1 dB frequency response difference might be described as such for a headphone, but it can actually be enough to be audible. Also, since the burned-in and fresh K701 could not have been the same pair, it is a quite possible explanation that there was an audible difference due to simple random variation between the samples.
 
Originally Posted by Bill-P /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
And here is the graph that shows that the "infallible" O2 is showing a measurable difference with another amplifier:

 
No one claimed the O2 to be infallible under any conditions, so that is a straw man. The IEMs used in that measurement also have significantly lower impedance at some frequencies than the minimum recommended by the designer (16 ohms), so in this case the amplifier is basically used with a load that is outside its specifications, just like - as more extreme examples - electrostatic headphones and speakers would be.

 
Dec 30, 2014 at 2:18 PM Post #108 of 133
  Again, what is the point of a listening session if you do not consider subjective impressions to be reliable anyway, as they are subject to expectation bias and other issues ? Or does that only matter for ABX tests (= double standards) ?
 
Well, like I said, the point is for him to experience it himself. I would still take his subjective impressions with a grain of healthy salt, of course, and his impressions and opinions do not necessarily prove or disprove anything. Basically, it does nothing aside from gaining some experience for him.
 
Amplifiers can and already have been measured with real loads. Most of the time, increased distortion and other issues occur because of too high output impedance, the load having much lower than nominal impedance at some frequencies, or poor amplifier design (such as instability due to cable capacitance). All the other factors you have listed can be taken into account with more detailed measurements.
 
Yeah, I have seen some measured that way, too, but those measurements are typically not published to prospective buyers, and just like I demonstrated above, the published specs of the O2 do not necessarily reflect its full performance.
 
In any case, if you consider both measurements and ABX tests inherently unreliable, then what do you suggest for evaluating gear ?
 
Aside from trying the gears yourself, and making your own decision, I don't think there is any other way currently. That's why I try to base my purchase decisions less on measurements and more on my own impressions, although it has been the case that when something measures really really well (past the point of "audibility"), that I do find it subjectively "better".
 
So, the fact that it is possible to do something (in this case, an ABX test) incorrectly makes it entirely unreliable and irrelevant ? Interesting logic, and it could be applied to just about everything in life.
 
Well, but that's my entire point. An ABX test that someone did should not be a yard stick to measure whether or not a piece of gear can perform well. There are simply way too many variables.
 
Similarly, what someone has said about a certain piece of gear, without ABX or any scientific test, should also be taken with a healthy grain of salt.
 
Basically, you are the only one who can decide whether a piece of gear is for you, and that "truth" will only apply to you.
 
It is, too bad their claims are quite often presented as facts. For those who do not agree with them, it is also their business to disagree, and explain why.
 
I'd agree that some of them like to present their opinions as fact, but that's not the case for all of them. And either case, as I said above, I wouldn't trust them either way.
 
For those who do not agree, they can definitely come up with some measure to gauge their distrust (in this case, ABX), but that does not necessarily disprove the claim, nor does it really prove the claim if it works the other way.

Due to the nature of this "inconclusive" result, I think, again, that it is best for a person to just try whatever it is that was claimed themselves, and then if it does not apply, then that's that. The claim is invalid for that person.
 
And I have seen unicorns the last night, but unfortunately there were no witnesses and the pictures I have taken were accidentally deleted.
 
I do have another witness, though. Seems someone else has also seen this website and talked about its disappearance in 2011:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/17/171099.html
 
I would just attribute it more to personal reasons (perhaps the webmaster decided to move on and do something else, or they failed to maintain the website), rather than some conspiracy, but either way, the website did exist at one point or another. Whether you would like to believe me or not is really your choice.
 
It depends on the definition of "miniscule". A 1 dB frequency response difference might be described as such for a headphone, but it can actually be enough to be audible. Also, since the burned-in and fresh K701 could not have been the same pair, it is a quite possible explanation that there was an audible difference due to simple random variation between the samples.
 
Unless Tyll somehow got a hold of materials that had contents above 10KHz, and they were of such a significant amplitude that they become audible, I'd think the differences should be more in the midrange area, where he measured the differences to be around 0.5dB or under, and that's what I meant by "minuscule".
 
And either way, the point is that there exist people who can hear differences, right?
 
No one claimed the O2 to be infallible under any conditions, so that is a straw man. The IEMs used in that measurement also have significantly lower impedance at some frequencies than the minimum recommended by the designer (16 ohms), so in this case the amplifier is basically used with a load that is outside its specifications, just like - as more extreme examples - electrostatic headphones and speakers would be.
 
Its author claimed and insisted that the amplifier is "infallible" for most headphones. I'm simply repeating his statements. Also, he did not recommend minimum 16 Ohm load impedance. He mentioned that his goal was to get the output impedance under 2 Ohm in order to achieve good damping factor with 16 Ohm with a "rule of thumb". Since his design ultimately ended up having an output impedance of 0.54 Ohm, he remarked that he exceeded the goal, and proceeded to post measurements at 15 Ohm load, showing the amp to have "excellent" performance there against its competition.
 
And either way, a 12 Ohm load should not be outside of the amp's specifications if its output impedance is truly 0.54 Ohm, and the amp was to perform like it should.

 
Answered again in bold.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 3:52 PM Post #109 of 133
   
Answered again in bold.

 
Well, well, well...
 
Okay, just one more time...
Well, ...the problem with seeking refuge in absolute relativity is you just end up invalidating yourself.  If nothing is reliable, transferable, or repeatable, then there is no point in endlessly arguing about it either, no?

Music choices and sound signature preference are subjective. The accurate playback of recordings isn't.  It;s called music playback and reproduction for a reason. I can't believe I even have to say something so obvious. Geez, do I have to spell everything out to you?

In the real world, there are generally accepted degrees of reliability, thresholds of audibilty, engineering tolerances and the like. The entire point of ABX testing (or any other scientific method) is to achieve some higher degree of repeatability, reproducability, and transferability within accepted thresholds or tolerances.
 
Words in italics are just for extra attitude.  Don't make me answer you in bold
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 4:08 PM Post #110 of 133
  Well, well, well...
 
Okay, just one more time...
Well, ...the problem with seeking refuge in absolute relativity is you just end up invalidating yourself.  If nothing is reliable, transferable, or repeatable, then there is no point in endlessly arguing about it either, no?

Music choices and sound signature preference are subjective. The accurate playback of recordings isn't.  It;s called music playback and reproduction for a reason. I can't believe I even have to say something so obvious. Geez, do I have to spell everything out to you?

In the real world, there are generally accepted degrees of reliability, thresholds of audibilty, engineering tolerances and the like. The entire point of ABX testing (or any other scientific method) is to achieve some higher degree of repeatability, reproducability, and transferability within accepted thresholds or tolerances.
 
Words in italics are just for extra attitude.  Don't make me answer you in bold

 
I did not mean bold as in "I need to emphasize this" but rather "I had to use bold fonts to differentiate my response from your post in order to make it easier for you to read".
 
I did not mean to show an attitude here, either.
 
And yes, I have repeatedly mentioned that many things, subjective impressions being the forefront here, are unreliable, and therefore, one should only trust one's judgment.
 
The problem with ABX is that while the test may be repeatable, its results will only be repeatable to the person who took it, and with the particular settings he took it in... because... again, ABX is a subjective test.
 
So it should not be taken as an objective measure, or in other words, not as "fact".
 
If I take an ABX test and end up unable to tell the difference between 2 pieces of gears, and then you purchase the same gears and can tell the difference, that does not mean you're lying. It simply means I, as in me, am unable to tell the difference.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 4:17 PM Post #111 of 133
Line by line answers are not the clearest way to communicate. You might try paragraphs. At least I know that would make it easier for me to follow.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 4:21 PM Post #113 of 133
When people do that, I answer back in a paragraph. Everyone will read your answer and ignore the line by line because it's too much work to parse.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 4:44 PM Post #115 of 133
   
I did not mean bold as in "I need to emphasize this" but rather "I had to use bold fonts to differentiate my response from your post in order to make it easier for you to read".
 
I did not mean to show an attitude here, either.
 
And yes, I have repeatedly mentioned that many things, subjective impressions being the forefront here, are unreliable, and therefore, one should only trust one's judgment.
 
The problem with ABX is that while the test may be repeatable, its results will only be repeatable to the person who took it, and with the particular settings he took it in... because... again, ABX is a subjective test.
 
So it should not be taken as an objective measure, or in other words, not as "fact".
 
If I take an ABX test and end up unable to tell the difference between 2 pieces of gears, and then you purchase the same gears and can tell the difference, that does not mean you're lying. It simply means I, as in me, am unable to tell the difference.

 
You're ignoring the ability to conduct the same test with various subjects and pool the results, which allows for some degree of generalization across the population if done correctly (proper sampling, testing protocols, etc). Even then, we still expect some number of people, if the sample size is large, to pass the test even though they could not actually discern a difference. So even if you're other-person does pass an ABX test that you fail, it could still not mean anything. We use statistics to quantify our uncertainty due to such occurrences.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 4:58 PM Post #116 of 133
I don't see what the point is of repeatedly testing the same things over and over one by one when we've had a full century of auditory testing to establish the thresholds of human perception. Most of the stuff audiophiles argue over were determined in the 1930s at Bell Labs. The physics of sound and the anatomy and operation of human hearing are very well understood. Yet people in sound science still waste hours and days of their lives doing listening tests to try to convince themselves they can hear the unhearable, or worse yet, doing comparison tests of things that are self evidently different sounding. At this point, ABX testing of lossless vs high bitrate lossy, high sampling rates, jitter, super low noise floors, etc... are a profound waste of time and energy. Those tests have all been done.
 
I see sound science a little differently than many here. I'm not here to discuss the nuts and bolts of ABX testing or to cross every theoretical T and dot every worst case scenario I. I see science as a practical tool to make your home stereo sound better. Equalization is one of the most powerful tools to improve *any* system, whether it's a humble earbud or a fabulously expensive set of Magnepan speakers. If we spent as much time discussing practical ways to apply this tool as we do going back and forth about the proper testing procedures for measuring things that were already measured half a century or more ago, we might actually help people get better sound out of their equipment.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 5:18 PM Post #117 of 133
  You're ignoring the ability to conduct the same test with various subjects and pool the results, which allows for some degree of generalization across the population if done correctly (proper sampling, testing protocols, etc). Even then, we still expect some number of people, if the sample size is large, to pass the test even though they could not actually discern a difference. So even if you're other-person does pass an ABX test that you fail, it could still not mean anything. We use statistics to quantify our uncertainty due to such occurrences.

 
In scientific journals, I've noticed that they tend to avoid generalization, and instead just make statements and observations on their samples instead. This is because logically, they simply cannot make any sweeping statement. This is what I am suggesting. Instead of taking someone else's test results as truth, you should consider other things... such as your own subjective impressions as well.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 5:24 PM Post #118 of 133
   
In scientific journals, I've noticed that they tend to avoid generalization, and instead just make statements and observations on their samples instead. This is because logically, they simply cannot make any sweeping statement. This is what I am suggesting. Instead of taking someone else's test results as truth, you should consider other things... such as your own subjective impressions as well.

 
Generalizations are made ALL THE TIME in scientific journals. It's why every other year eggs will either kill us or make us live longer. And my current subjective impression of amps is that, for the phones I have, my amps don't make a shred of difference to the music; hence why I offered to properly ABX them, though that would require equipment.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 5:26 PM Post #119 of 133
...  
And yes, I have repeatedly mentioned that many things, subjective impressions being the forefront here, are unreliable, and therefore, one should only trust one's judgment.
 
The problem with ABX is that while the test may be repeatable, its results will only be repeatable to the person who took it, and with the particular settings he took it in... because... again, ABX is a subjective test.
 
So it should not be taken as an objective measure, or in other words, not as "fact".
 
If I take an ABX test and end up unable to tell the difference between 2 pieces of gears, and then you purchase the same gears and can tell the difference, that does not mean you're lying. It simply means I, as in me, am unable to tell the difference.

are you losing yourself for the sake of the argument, or do you really intend to tell us that uncontrolled personal experience of a gear is more reliable than a controlled one?

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
about your answer to stv014 before, your "demonstration" never showed that amps sounded different, it demonstrated that amps could have different impedances. it's really not the same thing. and the differences came from the IEM in fact, not from the amp. else the IE8 would also have suffered from the effect as it's a low impedance IEM too. but it just didn't, showing that the amps just did what they were asked to do.
about the O2, given the number of nwavguy haters for no reason at all, do you really think that they didn't already try all they could to find some problems here and there on the O2? it's one of the most documented amp you can find, certainly me playing with strange signs such as + - and / (I've done more math in the last week than I did in 10years and it shows
frown.gif
)isn't going to uncover anything new. I personally just accept the fact that I mixed approximate values taken from 2 different sources and just that is enough for some variations to be expected.
 
Dec 30, 2014 at 5:26 PM Post #120 of 133
  I don't see what the point is of repeatedly testing the same things over and over one by one when we've had a full century of auditory testing to establish the thresholds of human perception. Most of the stuff audiophiles argue over were determined in the 1930s at Bell Labs. The physics of sound and the anatomy and operation of human hearing are very well understood. Yet people in sound science still waste hours and days of their lives doing listening tests to try to convince themselves they can hear the unhearable, or worse yet, doing comparison tests of things that are self evidently different sounding. At this point, ABX testing of lossless vs high bitrate lossy, high sampling rates, jitter, super low noise floors, etc... are a profound waste of time and energy. Those tests have all been done.
 
I see sound science a little differently than many here. I'm not here to discuss the nuts and bolts of ABX testing or to cross every theoretical T and dot every worst case scenario I. I see science as a practical tool to make your home stereo sound better. Equalization is one of the most powerful tools to improve *any* system, whether it's a humble earbud or a fabulously expensive set of Magnepan speakers. If we spent as much time discussing practical ways to apply this tool as we do going back and forth about the proper testing procedures for measuring things that were already measured half a century or more ago, we might actually help people get better sound out of their equipment.

 
I think the regulars in sound science have done their time with testing and simply try to preach truth. It's not their fault that rigorous testing, both statistical and non-statistical, still can't convince people of things. It's just human nature, I guess.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top