[Effusion]

Sounds like a good plan.  DACs are very important, but a cleaner signal will help any DAC.  Better quality DACs will show these improvements more, so once you upgrade you'll know that you are getting the best signal that you can from your new DAC.
 
As far as I can tell from the pictures, yes you'd want to use the optical input/output between the two.  So, USB into the Mutec, optical out of the Mutec, and finally optical into the Fostex.  The USB on the Mutec appears to be bi-directional, so you could also use it as a USB out at some point, but would have to come from either the Coax or Optical out of a motherboard.  If it had two USBs, one input and one output, I could have used it with my setup and a lot of others could have as well.  Maybe one day...
 
While there are quite a few folks who do not like optical, I think you'll find that you can really find about the same amount not liking USB nor Coax as well.  There are strengths and weakness to all of them, so it's important to understand each.  I believe the biggest issues with optical have always been both the connectors and the material.  Generally the connectors are very cheaply made and not just on cables, mostly on equipment; while the Mutec connectors are probably high quality, the ones on say your motherboard or even some DACs may be low quality.  Some who are fans of optical only use the best (most expensive) optical cables so that jitter creation is non-existent.  Small timing/registering delays can occur within optical due to how the light diffracts and travels at different wavelengths, so it can mess a bit with the clock's timing and/or the signal.  However this is usually pretty small and just the fact that you are using the clock off the Mutec unit instead of your CPU, negates a large part of potential jitter into the DAC's stream; CPU core clocks are not only clocking your audio, but everything else your computer is processing as well, so compromises have to be made sometimes.  One plus to optical is that EMI/RFI doesn't really interfere with it and degrade the signal.  Some out there claim that glass is better than plastic and that certain cable lengths should be used.  There are some merit to these various opinions, however I've never really been an optical guy, more coax and now USB, so unfortunately I can't help much.  If you are planning on upgrading the DAC soon, try to get the best bang for your buck popular optical cable out there for your current DAC, so you have more to put towards the new DAC as well as options for selling it once you do.  Unfortunately I do not know what that cable is nor where to find out.  You also could wait until you get the new DAC, using the money that would be going to the Mutec for it and then getting the Mutec at a later date afterwards.  I'm not sure how many of the Mutec units come up for sale, but finding one used in that time could always be an option.
 
Hope that helps a little bit more.  Contacting Mutec with some of your questions prior to buying wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Hifi Boy]

WireWorld optical cables are around 20,000 yen here. Not too expensive, so I see no reason why I couldn't take one for now if I decide to go with Mutec first.
 
After I get my parts from Victor and other upgrades we've discussed I think I'm done with digital upgrades for a while and will start concentrating on the analog side of things. I believe that Fujiya Avic has a repair shop at the same place where they sell the headphones so I might try to get them to install these parts into my Elekit.
 
I must say that I am happy with how it sounds after I've added Gold Lions KT66, but if you and JK both agree that Mundorfs will give me more detail, then I certainly won't complain!
 
Could you also tell me how exactly does the Amtrans affect the sound? In the same way as the Mundorfs, or is it different? Do they give you more detail or something else entirely? What about the soundstage and imaging?
 
One more thing, now that I know how to clean up the USB signal (Mutec MC-3+USB), could you also tell me what would be the easiest way to clean up my power supply? What I mean is, something that's not DIY solution, but a simple purchase.

 

[Effusion]

Yup, all you would need in the short-term for the Mutec would be a cable like that, with good value to sell down the line.
 
Let us know how it goes with the supreme upgrade.  Unfortunately, I can't really comment much on the Amtrans versus other components in particular; I had all of the upgrades I've done in two separate occasions and I was unable to actually use the amp for a while in-between the installations.  To me, the supreme upgrade package gave me more resolution, however the affect isn't huge or anything like that, just better definition and to me more natural flow with added clarity; a bit like a refined signal tube that brings it all together, rather than an entirely different tube set which does not sound the same; it helps by processing the stream better so that the sound of the amp can be at its best.  Let us know your impressions pre and post go as well.
 
There's probably a lot you can do to improve the resolution and detail of the sound, but in the end it really all comes down to having two components, of which you really have to like and enjoy in the long-term.  These are both the source and I what I call the ends.  Nowadays with Flac and other uncompressed media types, also ultimately due to how the actual recording was recorded/mixed, in a way the source has become more of your DAC nowadays than the digital file, as well as in a much more controlled way than almost anything above it in the stream.  We can't really change the actual source, how it was recorded/mixed for the studio/live recording, neither can we affect the sound other than to use the best uncompressed technology around, so in a way the DAC is now the area we have control within. Finally, it ends with your speakers or often, such as in these cases, headphones, as the ends.  So, in my opinion, you will always get the best sound by using the best to you in both the DAC and the speakers/headphones and to your preferences.  Not that the in-between doesn't matter, it's actually very important, as it is the actual journey of sound right.  It is also the reason why all of us really like the Elekit TU-8200; it makes the connection of your DAC to your headphones amazing and with enough tweaks to really have your fill.  As in many ways, all this in-between is really just getting the signal through the path from the source to the ends, however I think we can all agree that it is how you do it that makes all the difference.  In one way, units like the Mutec, as well as the path I took, go one step up closer to the real source, beyond where the DAC sits, where we still actually have some influence on the sound, better stated as better control on what influences the DAC.  Cleaning this area of the chain, which essentially feeds your DAC, will only help everything downstream... ultimately.
 
However, in my opinion, I think you'll probably get better millage in the short-term out the benefits of a new DAC.  Now, whether that's prior to or after a Mutec unit, is entirely up to you, but I think you'll get a bigger impact out of a DAC first.  Unfortunately, a lot of what one ends up buying with the higher-end DACs nowadays is really just more resolution in most cases.  I've had the pleasure of hearing several very expensive DACs throughout the years and most of the time in the end it came down to both resolution and detail for those that were priced far/beyond what is average.  There are a ton of great DACs out there, so you really want to find one that both works well with you and more importantly, has the sound you are after.  If detail is the ultimate for example, the sky can really be the limit.  Even on the other end, the actual ends of the chain, in this case our headphones, you can and many do go there as well.  There are some really nice, but very expensive electrostatic setups out there that can get you some amazing resolution in the mids, etc.  So, essentially while the Mutec would help you now as well as in the future, it's overall benefit is probably more like the supreme upgrade in the Elekit to a new quality DAC upgrade in regards to overall impact; the Mutec is just letting your DAC do its very best, how your DAC does this is really up to it.   A new DAC, one that you really like, should give you more of a dramatic difference, while the Mutec will only really help it out that much more.  Often many higher-end DACs tend to be more sensitive to dirty power and signals than you would think; the higher the resolution of the DAC, the more impact a clean power/signal solution will tend to have because it will show more of the actual changes and in more detail.
 
As far as more resolution out of the TU-8200 amp, besides upgrading components, different tube types/variants could also help in some of these areas.  I've tried a few rare 12au7s and also the Telefunken Diamond smooth and ribbed plates, which were all very good as far as detail and resolution.  Some of the power tube types can also help out as far a detail in the mid-range, including a few such as the EL34s, that many here really like.  As far as newer production, the Psvane brand is regarded as being very detailed, which you have some of already.  However you choose to go, there is quite a bit of experience with tube-rolling this amp within this thread, so let us know if you have any questions regarding different types.
 
As far as cleaning up the power supply, unfortunately it may be very hard to do with a laptop.  You can run your entire laptop using a Linear Power Supply unit that feeds into the laptop's charging port (not sure with Apples though, but probably).  However the computer is still going to throw all of its garbage down into the current stream that feeds your DAC anyway.  One benefit of Linear power is that it has a very small to almost non-existent amount of ripple on the rails, however, dirty power in is still dirty power out in the end.  Don't get me wrong, it will have a benefit, but probably not as large as other possibilities.  However, I don't think you need to worry as the Mutec unit is powered separately (power-cord of your choice) and since it re-clocks your signal, I believe it is probably stripping away the computer's power signal and/or enhancing with it's own somehow.  Power regulation is usually a main focus in units such as these.  In a way, looking at both the external linear power supply for use with a laptop versus using the Mutec with a laptop, the Mutec probably makes the most sense, mainly because the components aren't on separate power supplies to begin with, if you only run in a linear current line into the laptop charging port.
 
I hope this doesn't create too much more to think about!

 

[Hifi Boy]

Well, it actually is a lot to think about but, I'll deal with it. 

 
I've done some research, and it seems like PS Audio PerfectWave 3 would be a good power supply for start.
Not to expensive, but has some really good reviews.
 
Regardless of whether I go with Mutec or DAC first (I've already decided its going to be Simaudio Moon Neo 380D DSD), I need to get some good cables. I've tried Kimber Axios at the last Fujiya-Avic show and they were amazing. What I will also need from Kimber is an adapter, since I'll be getting a 4-pin cable but with an adapter to the 1/4" jack. In my opinion it should be terminated with a 4-pin connector for a future amp, but currently, I need a 1/4" for Elekit.
 
I don't know whether you ever had a chance to listen to any Mass-Kobo products, but their Model 394 (540,000 yen) is by far the best amp I've ever tried. And yes on the same day, at the Fujiya-Avic show, I've tried the almost 4 times more expensive Goldmund HDA Telos 2. As far as I can remember, Model 394 was not as holographic, but it was more pleasant to listen to. This is a solid state amp but sounds like a tube amp with great punch, smooth sound and incredible detail.
 
But it has to be taken into account that I've only compared Model 394 to the stock Elekit. I'll have to hear it again and compare it with my Elekit which now has Gold Lion tubes and will soon have Victor's upgrades.
Will it still be worth to get the Model 394 then? I'm not sure, but we'll see.
 
What I'm also interested are other tube amps, for example Eddie Current ones. Unfortunately I never tried any of them. From what I've read the Balancing Act and the Studio seem to be the end game amps for sure.
 
As for the Elekit upgrades, as soon as they arrive, I will let you guys know what I think of them. 

 

 

[Effusion]

Okay, I see where you are going now, a general power supply and not one for your computer exclusively.  Yes, PS Audio does have some really nice power supplies and power conditioners.  In my opinion they can sometimes be a bit too high in price, but many like them.  I would suggest using it with only your audio equipment plugged in and having your computer on a different circuit if possible.
 
The Mass-Kobo looks very nice, I've never heard one before, but it looks very interesting.  I would give the Elekit a chance though, it truly is a great amplifier for the price.  The right tube sets are also very important to get the sound you are seeking.
 
As far as cables, I haven't sunk a bunch of money into them, opting mostly for hospital grade power cords and bluejeanscable.com products, so I can't help much here.  However, be mindful that there are a ton of really expensive cables out there and not all of those that are expensive sound the best in every system.  For detail, generally silver give the best, while they may sound a bit thin and bright at times.  Generally copper provides a ticker, warmer sound, but not always.  I actually really like the solid copper with silver coated on the outside hybrids, they tend to give me the best of both worlds, with the least amount of negatives usually associated to each.
 
Adapters can be useful at times when you have cable misconfigurations, at least in the short-term.
 
As far as Eddie Current amps go, they are awesome!  The one that I really like, I mean really, is the limited Studio amp by them.  It is definitely the best amp out there I've heard period, especially because every set of headphones I've tried with it sound the very best I've ever heard them.  This includes several headphones I use exclusively with the Elekit, the Studio is better.  Simply superb amplifier.  Other offerings from them are nice as well, but some I think are a little overpriced.  The Zana Deux or the Studio for me as far as they go and from what I've heard.
 
Keep us up to date on the upgrades and any other questions you may have.

 

[Hifi Boy]

Wow, you actually heard The Studio?
 
It was my opinion that this was a very rare amp and not many people have had the chance to hear it. 
Could you please let me know, when compared to a much cheaper and upgraded Elekit, how do these two stack up?
 
I mean, I know that Studio is better, I don't doubt that for a second. But how much better and how exactly better, is what I'm interested in? Because if I'm ever going to update to this amp, it would sure be helpful to know since its is $7000 that I will have to fork over for one. Also, have you had the chance to hear the Balancing Act?
 
I can tell you for a fact that I'm very happy with my Elekit. But also can't deny that I would like to have Mass-Kobo Model 394 and Studio if I could.

 

[Effusion]

Yup, and on more than one occasion.
 
Yes, I believe it is a very limited release, so many who have very much wished to hear it have been unable to.  On both occasions it simply beat all other amplifiers I've tired personally.  With both my HD650s and Custom Beyers, the experience has been absolutely sublime.  In fact, it has run every headphone I've thrown at it the best that I have heard.  Easily beating not only the Elekit, but many other amps that are no slouches.  The second time I heard it was better than the first, since the tubes were changed to ones with better characteristics overall in my opinion, but were very expensive.  That's the thing, not only is it not cheap, the tube sets are also very expensive.  To me, it does everything very well, but with a natural ease of presentation that is in my opinion hard to match.  Not only was it detailed like crazy, probably one of the best I've ever heard as far as detail, the sound was never clinical, dry, or bright; I actually found it even more natural than other amps that are known to be very organic and thus, less detailed.  The sense of presence is amazing and the sound-stage is just about perfect for most purposes.  I really can't think of any real negatives about it in fact; the best of just about everything I would say in relation to the Elekit and much more expensive units than the Elekit.
 
I don't think the Elekit could ever be as good, no matter how many parts you upgrade, however for the price as well as all the company's research/design that went into the limited unit, we wouldn't really expect it to.  The real question is at how much cost as a ratio to the performance gained is there with it.  The Elekit and others get you fairly close, for a fraction of the price.  In addition, those extra little bits of pure delight that the Studio possess come at an exponential cost when compared to great value and nice sounding amps.  So, one must ask themselves, how much is 20% better worth?  How much for 30%?  How much for only 5% more?  And so on... don't get me wrong, if I had the money or was given one for free I would gladly use it.  However, since I really like all the tweaks you can do to the sound with the Elekit, I would honestly actually keep this amplifier in addition to it as well.  However I am one that likes to change the sound signature from time to time to fit certain needs/moods, so I would also still use the Elekit in some way.  That would be perfect, both a Studio and an Elekit TU-8200... what more could I ask for!
 
EDIT:
 
Unfortunately I haven't heard the Balancing Act from them yet, but it sure does look very nice!
 
Also, as far as a more direct comparison to the Elekit, I would really need to spend some more time with the Studio and actually with it in my setup.  Overall the Studio is better in my opinion, but I would need time to evaluate the Elekit amp to it using different tube sets as well as modes in order to be fair on how I judge the individual characteristics.  However, I think the choices the TU-8200 provides would allow you a possibility to be able to extend and/or even enhance the sound in certain areas over the Studio, or in your own opinion just better than the Studio at times; very much like a different headphone paired with the Studio would sound compared to others (I'm sure they all sound amazing though).  For example, you could extend the soundstage or change the EQ of the TU-8200 with a different set of tubes, even changing the output mode in addition, which at times will also change how the tubes respond to throw even more in the possibilities mix.  All of this gives a ton of different potential options to match your headphones to your DAC in the ways that you see fit or enjoy.  Plus, I wouldn't feel comfortable upgrading the components inside the Studio (they don't need to be anyways), so the Elekit is just easier to adjust in these areas as well as others.  However, the TU-8200 would probably not come very close in several areas compared to the Studio in the end, which in turn would make it much harder to audition between the two because automatically the Studio has an advantage with the synergy it has shown me in the past.  However, if you really like your headphones as well as your DAC and you don't mind messing around with the amp or trying out different tubes in it, then the Elekit TU-8200 can really be a lot of fun!

 

[Dimu]

  Anyone pair a Elekit TU-8200 with KEF LS50 speakers? Thoughts?

 
Works well for me.

 

[MisterPC]

   
Works well for me.

And...? Any details that you care to share?

 

[Hifi Boy]

A quick update before the end of the year!

 
I've just purchased WireWorld Platinum Starlight 7 USB 1.5m cable and I can confirm,
that right out of the box you can hear slight difference from my stock Fostex HPA-4BL DAC cable.
 
The cable has not been broken in at all, and the differences are not dramatic.
I would only say that you can hear a slightly fuller bass reverb and that there is a bit more presence to the sound overall.
Basically its more in the nuances.
 
The bass is tighter and the decay of drums and cymbals is longer and their imaging is more pronounced.
 I've certainly noticed more details using the PSB7 cable, than with the stock cable.
 
For example, in 192khz version of Keith Greeninger & Dayan Kei - Looking for a Home, I have only now noticed that this is a duo,
not a solo performance which starts with Keith Greeninger at 0:29 and then Dayan Kei joins close to end of 0:29, moving into 0:30 sec.
 
I have never previously noticed this section at all, and always considered this part to be performed by Keith alone.
 
So, I can confirm that the cable at least pulls my attention to detail which I did not notice before. Is all of this a placebo effect,
I certainly cannot tell for now. Will have to give some more time to break the cable in, and then I'll give my final judgement.
 
Also, I'm not sure whether Fostex HPA-4BL DAC is even able to reproduce properly the additional signal which is supposedly brought by PSB7.
It might be the case that with a better DAC, the sound scales much more.
 
For now, I will just conclude with saying that the perceived changes to the sound, which in my opinion make this cable,
if nothing else, more transparent that the stock cable, even if they are minute.
 
Tomorrow I'm probably going to be receiving another piece of gear which I recently ordered, so stay tuned for an update. 

 
 

 

 

 

 

[Effusion]

Congrats on the new cable, it looks like a really nice one!
 
Crazy how even USB cables can affect the sound.  With most cables, the connectors can make a huge difference, as well as how they are manufactured.  However, compared to other components, in my experience cables typically provide the smallest differences compared to other upgrades, similar to tubes in a way, such as different 12au7s in the TU-8200.  A great cable, with really good connections, will tend to affect both the imaging and sound-stage in a positive way, with silver providing a bit more detail and copper providing a bit more warmth in addition.  Also, in my experience power cables provide more of a dramatic difference than most interconnects.  Of course your mileage will vary; I think once you get a new DAC, trying this cable against another cheap cable will show even more of a difference than with the Fostex DAC.  More revealing DACs tend to be more sensitive to the cables connected to them.
 
Let us know how the rest of the upgrades go!
 

 

 

[Hifi Boy]

Hi Effusion.

Happy New Year!

Yes, the cable does make a difference but for now it's quite small.
I'm hoping, as you said, that with a better dac it will be more noticeable. Also, I'm still waiting for another piece of gear to come in so please, stay tuned!

 

[Hifi Boy]

One more update, before the real gear arrives.

 
I've received the Mundorf capacitors today and I can't wait to try them out!
Also, Victor suggested I buy the Amtrans resistors directly from Amtrans since I'm here in Tokyo, which is exactly what I'm going to do.
 
Anyway, I'll let you guys know what I think of the upgrade as soon as its installed into my Elekit.
 
Thanks for sending these Victor!
 

 

 

 

 

[Hifi Boy]

Finally, after almost 3 weeks, my MUTEC-MC3+USB has arrived!

 
Please keep in mind that my Elekit is being upgraded, so I will write a detailed review after I get it back.
 
For now, let me just say that through the Fostex it sounds amazing.
The detail is through the roof and if I had only one word to describe the sound it would be - REAL.
The music now simply sounds more real and the instruments are much better defined in space than previously.
 
I have no idea what I can expect when the Mundorf/Amtrans upgrade arrives but I believe it will be amazing!

 
 
 

 

[Effusion]

Glad you are digging the Mutec!
 
They are great sounding units and you went with one of the better units they offer.  Although my setup is different, my conclusions are very similar to yours and now after going through it as well I believe that cleaning up the signal is almost necessary when using a computer.  The hard thing is when everyone is using different setups; some laptops, some desktops, some servers, etc.  However, they are probably all just messing up the sound in some sort of a way and in the end, and in their own way.  It would be cool to see more reviewers using units such as these to at least try to level the playing field more, especially with DACs.
 
One way to think of it is if you were layering fabric mesh over a tweeter, each layer dampens the sound coming from the tweeter and in a way you end up losing both the fine detail as well as what I like to think of as the presence of the sound.  The fine detail gets washed out and the presence of the sound gets over-saturated with background variances/noise to essentially drown itself out.  In a way these pieces of fabric are similar to when we introduce or produce interference within the signal, just small layers of degradation that we can peal back in a sense with units such as the Mutec 3.1+.  You could also put digital jitter into this category as well.
 
So, in a way, units like the Mutec allow us to at least begin to get closer to just the tweeter and nothing in-between.  I believe that every time we really mess with the signal, either when changing characteristics, paths, and even types of signals, these very small nuances of detail/presence, that collectively make the music sound more real, may be degraded and even lost.  The reason why tubes sound so nice to many is because of distortion, but not like we normally perceive it.  Distortion in the higher level harmonics, such as that produced by tubes, to me add their own flavor of presence to the sound and also to many, make the sound more natural.  However, other types of distortion are unpleasant and are to be avoided.  These revived nuances not only improve the resolution, as we are closer to the original, but they give us a sense of the sound that is sometimes missing, but unfortunately is very enjoyable.  From the very slight plucking of an instrument to the background noise of a crowd, the presence of the sound allows us to feel like we are witnessing the moment with the music rather than having to inherently accept that it was conducted in the past and we are only a mere witness of this past.
 
It would be really cool if Mutec made some smaller units, with just a set of USB in/outs as well as options for AES combos.  If they still used the core components, such as in the 3.1, but removed all other connections and lowered the price, I think they would do quite well.  Maybe an option of an in/out clock as an add on.  I think quality cheaper and smaller units, but more geared toward the mass home-audio market than the pro, would be useful to many.  As our understanding and implementation of USB as become so much better as of late, having all those other options that drive up the cost when most newer DACs have pretty good, at least responsive, USB inputs, would be probably be pretty popular.  Anyway, I think this is just the beginning as far as products like these go.
 
In a perfect world, I would have a dedicated solar panel network connected to quality batteries and the using pure sine wave inverters to be pushed out to certain audio dedicated rooms.  This is ultimately isolating the entire signal of your sound; away from your house, your neighborhood, and the grid itself.  However, I would even like to see in the near future, that is as we become better with batteries in general, small components acting like a rechargeable power bank paired with a type of pure sine wave inverter, and all prior to the conversion of DC for use.  Essentially removing all components from the noise of the grid in a way, but that still provides constant power (maybe a bit of a warm-up time).  This is a bit far down the road though and would only be for audio dedicated components.
 
Let the new Elekit amp components burn-in a bit before concluding, I think 20-30 hours should be good.  I found that the sound smoothed out about then and has stayed fairly constant since; at first you may find the highs a bit bright and the sound just a little sharp overall in general.  This all seemed to go away after a bit of run time, but the detail, air, and imaging stayed.
 
Only gets better from here!