[bangraman]

Dane, in your situation even I would ask a few questions: Such as did you buy two sets of a different cable to 'control' the results? Do you have clean power? Were you truly able to switch immediately between the two interconnects from the same CD player (i.e. did it have two outputs which were identical sounding with the control cables)? These are questions I would personally have raised if you posted your findings.


It was just an idle wondering for a while but a few days ago I suddenly realised that I had everything I needed for the ideal relatively low-cost platform which satisfied all the questions I would have raised in a proper switched A -> B test.

 

[Dane]

Sorry for the lack of info, it was merely meant as a note on my personal non-scientific experience on the matter - and to warn other newbs like myself to not get ripped off by cable sellers.
I didn't buy anything before having tried out the stuff at home - so I borrowed units and cables and what not from several shops (those who wouldn't borrow, too bad - no deal). I do not have power conditioning so that could in theory have masked any differences. I was able to make instant swithing because the player has two set of ouputs, one balanced and one unbalanced. Yes, in theory any soninc difference between these two types of line outs and the cables could have exactly cancled out each other, but I found that highly unlikely. Anyway, this was my personal experience, I can't hear a difference so for me I doesn't matter too much. Adding just one more CD to my collection will, for me, bring much more joy than the elusive improvements brought by ICs.

 

[bangraman]

I suppose for the interest of completeness (and to discount any electrostatic weirdness... perhaps everything is too resolved for me to hear the differences? Although I doubt it) I should do this with a really good dynamic and a preamp/headamp or a headamp with Fiddler's switch. Do I feel another major acquisition coming on? Arrrrrg

 

[gradofan]

Halcyon, your commentary is very insightful. Thanks for teaching me more about hearing works!

A lot of you have good suggestions for curbing cable madness or testing different cables. I agree with Hirsch -- try different cables for a few weeks. If you can't hear the difference, return them. If one cable sounds better, keep it. I did a blind AB test yesterday between some Monster 300 cable and a "Hirschified" interconnect. The Hirschified won by a narrow margin in the top end. But honestly, the difference wasn't enormous. I have to admit, I'm a sucker for good-looking gear, and the cables he made just look a helluva lot nicer than the monster ICs.

We all have different goals, different directions we're going with this hobby. Some, like Nik, are searching for the Holy Grail (and he'll probably find it!

). Others just want to improve their systems economically. But we all have one thing in common: music. And if your system communicates the music to you, then all you have left is a few tweaks.

As a side note, consider what you could do with the money you'd've spent on a $1,000 cable. You're $200 away from a 10-day trip to China. Or you could get 20 bottles of *really* good whiskey. Or a new CDP. Or used PS-1s. Or maybe a laptop like the one I'm using. I guess you should just make sure the difference (assuming you hear one) is worth your money.

 

[mikeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiddler I'm not entirely convinced about your testing method. I find to appreciate differences in cables you have to do quite a bit of extended listening before swapping over. Very fast A/B switching in my experience doesn't allow the ear enough time to catch all the subtle differences.

I agree with this observation. Recently I compared the sound of several amps. driving an MDR-R10 headphone. Quick A/B changes, back and forth, showed little or no difference between them. But, when I listened for a longer period (e.g., 15 minutes) to one amp. before switching to another, very significant differences became apparent. In fact, last night I critically compared my RA-1 amp. to my 300B tube amp., using an HD650, and RS-1. No real difference was apparent when I did quick A/B changes. But, differences in the rendition of background string instruments in a large orchestra became clearly apparent on more prolonged listening to each amplifier. When listening in this way, the RA-1 was clearly inferior to the tube amp. Other significant differences between these amps also became apparent when the comparison was done in this way.

 

[tortie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dane . I was able to make instant swithing because the player has two set of ouputs, one balanced and one unbalanced. Yes, in theory any soninc difference between these two types of line outs and the cables could have exactly cancled out each other, but I found that highly unlikely. .

Hi Dane. Did you put the lamp cords in the unbalanced output and your DYI cables on the balanced output?

 

[mikeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 I disagree that fast switching is not a good test. If your ears are good enough to detect a difference, then your ears should be good enough to detect it right away. If you have to strain or really grasp to detect a difference, then you are spending too much time listening to your equipment and not enjoying the music. Then again if there is a difference, how great is it? Is $350 worth that extra .0001% difference? Only you can determine that.

I found that the differences are fairly subtle; e.g., space between background instruments of an orchestra, clarity in the presentation of background instruments, width of soundstage, etc. Hearing such differences requires paying real attention to the music, and also requires a bit of time. Trying to compare "bursts of sound" in quick A/B flipping back and forth does highlight these differences. I did some of these comparisons while listening to large choral works by Bach and Handel. BTW, my comparisons were of amps. and not cables, although the testing procedure should also apply equally to cables.

 

[eric343]

Quote:

Originally Posted by radrd Welcome to my world. I did the exact same test you did with some cables that were supposed to sound very different from one another (Nites/$100 silvers) and they sounded exactly the same. I tried fast switching and I tried slow switching. It didn't matter, there was no difference. I now don't believe that expensive interconnects hold any value for me. Maybe someone with golden ears can hear the difference, but not this sucker.

I believe you tried my cables and definitely liked the results, no?

 

[bangraman]

A point of order: Would those of you who DID find differences in cabling please outline your testing methods and power status? I'm interested in whether there's a better way of doing this test.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman A point of order: Would those of you who DID find differences in cabling please outline your testing methods and power status? I'm interested in whether there's a better way of doing this test.

When I got my EAD player, and hooked it to the Stax amp, I felt that my electrostatics simply didn't sound good (MIT MI-330 Mk II interconnects). I'm particularly sensitive to the midrange, which has to be right. When I switched to the prototype VD master, I felt as though a veil had been lifted. There was a new level of detail present, and the frequency response was dead on. That's as far as I went. I don't like to screw around once I've got a sound that I want. It may not be scientific, but the results were immediate and obvious, and I've been happy with the sound of that system for several months now.

That particular player does not work well with the top Virtual Dynamics power cords. The midrange receeds, and the frequency response becomes distorted. I switched to the K-Works Empowered Cord, and everything fell into place (well, almost. I'd like to bring out the midrange just a tad more, but it's trivial and has been improving with burn-in). Once it sounded right, I stopped. I don't usually feel a need to A/B and figure out what changed. If something sounds right to me, I prefer to leave it alone. If I've got an itch that says I can be getting more out of a particular system, then I experiment, be it interconnects, power cords, or tubes (or power conditioning, or whatever).

 

[Dane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tortie Hi Dane. Did you put the lamp cords in the unbalanced output and your DYI cables on the balanced output?

Yeah, that's what I did. I have to say though that both cables are really short (25cm). I'm sure that running an unshielded lamp cord over several meters is a very bad idea and could result in audible loss of quality. You can of course always make a difference in cables if there are basic technical flaws and I definitely consider an unshielded lamp cord unsuitable for audio. Perhaps in a more noisy environment than mine the differences would have been evident for me, even with the short 25cm run.

As a side note: I find it easier to distinguish different souces on a speaker system, could be the case for cables too.

 

[radrd]

Quote:

I believe you tried my cables and definitely liked the results, no?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did try yours, and they are the only cable that I could hear a difference with. I won't lie and say it is a dramatic difference, as I would probably fail a DB test, but it was enough of a difference to justify keeping your cables in my system. The way I understand it, though, there is a sound scientific explanation for me hearing a difference with your cable, as it adds resistance, correct?

 

[eric343]

Quote:

Originally Posted by radrd Yes, as a matter of fact, I did try yours, and they are the only cable that I could hear a difference with. I won't lie and say it is a dramatic difference, as I would probably fail a DB test, but it was enough of a difference to justify keeping your cables in my system. The way I understand it, though, there is a sound scientific explanation for me hearing a difference with your cable, as it adds resistance, correct?

Yes, there is, but to say they improve the sound because they "add resistance" would be quite misleading... they present a purely resistive load to the source, as opposed to the reactive load that all (other) cables present.

 

[eric343]

[double post]

 

[jatinder]

A big problem with connecting the same source (DVD player etc) to the same amp (007t) using two sets of ics is that you probably don't know what effect the two runs of ics has on the amp and on the source.

Many DVD players will have the front L/R outputs hooked up to the normal (non-surround) L/R outputs. Whether the two are completely isolated - I don't know. Similarly, many amps with more than one input will leak sound or grounding between the various inputs.

The thing to do is - check that the source and amp both work correctly when connected as you did.

I did similar tests using my SA-1 - this definitely has two completely independent outputs - unfortunately one is balanced and the other unbalanced. I did and continue to detect, small differences between the various cables that I use. Some of these effects are obvious as soon as you use the cable, other differences you only notice once you've been using the cable for a few weeks and then swap it with another. Who knows - maybe it's just the fact that the connectors have been wiped and tightened during extraction/insertion.

With the R10, once I've been listening to it for a few minutes - my ears "adjust" and every other headphone that I try imediately after truly sounds "crap". If I listen to those other headphones after a 5 minute break instead, then they sound "good".

Just rambling.

--Jatinder