for those interested in how the debate continued, this ended up spilling over to another
thread. instead of giving up evidenciary posts to further support his claims, vcoheda at first chose to insult my person, calling me "very immature and attention needy", which is ironic as this was itself the most immature post in the entire exchange:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif
your statements completely misrepresent anything and everything i have said. anyone who reads my posts against yours will clearly see that. i tried to drop this issue by not responding to your insulting posts, but you persist. you seem like a very immature and attention needy person.
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but the guy did finally give up some links after there was no where else to go.
here are the key excerpts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif
this is not accurate. the hd600 is a better headphone than the hd580. anyone who knows the history of the hd580-Jubilee-hd600 would know this. there are reasons why it is a better headphone. it is not speculation.
1. the drivers of the 600s are more closely matched.
2. the bales of the 600s are made of carbon fiber and the 580s are made of plastic.
3. the grills of the 600s are made of stainless steel and the 580s are plastic.
those are real differences. considering how affordable the hd600 is now a days, it is preferable to seek those out instead.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
1. has been shown to have negligible effect and is evidenced by the many people who prefer the modded 580 over the 600
2. carbon fiber makes a UNIVERSE of difference in terms of SQ
3. 600s cost TWICE as much as 580s and the grilles cost $15/pair. they pop right onto the 580s.
yes the differences are certainly tangible (as in you can see them) differences, but in terms of sound quality, the claim quoted above is cannot be firmly supported outside of vcoheda's own personal stubborn and questionable opinion, likely based on his now distant and cloudy impression. (we've got a lively discussion in the 580 modding EDU).
grab a pair of 580s as you planned OP - you won't regret it.
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so it begins...and a few volleys later, this gem:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif
i still disagree and there are plenty of posts/websites that support my position. but talking to you is not worth it, as your posts take an unreasonable tone. you cite one post and then take that as an absolute. i'll just let potential buyers and readers sort this out.
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[size=x-small]emphasis added[/size]
looks like counting isn't our forte...regardless, it became important to explain to others entering the fray at that point, what had transpired before:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
...i initially started a thread as a resource for those interested in modding their 580s. he comes in and says the clearly smarter thing to do is buy the 600 outright. this is a quantitative statement just like his first in this thread. in reply i mentioned that there are many people who are interested in modding 580 and feel it is worthwhile, which is a quantifiable statement in that it can be measured (either there are people who have publicly preferred the 580mod sound over 600 sound, or there aren't).
that's when he called me out with: "really. i'd like to see some of these posts". so i gave them to him, very many. and instead of providing citations of his own or admitting that there were many threads that he has not read on the subject, he just comes out with the same absolute assertion that modding 580s is not worthwhile, citing quantitative reasons. for each of these i found multiple sources that say otherwise! and he has yet to offer any type of link or resource in support of his position, hence "stubborn and questionable" from before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif
i still disagree and there are plenty of posts/websites that support my position. but talking to you is not worth it, as your posts take an unreasonable tone. you cite one post and then take that as an absolute. i'll just let potential buyers and readers sort this out.
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"really. i would like to see some of these posts."
those words sound familiar? they're your own. sound challenging, don't they? so let's see it! you've been all talk so far, where are the references! where are they?
the tone has been one of reason; for every claim you've made i've found at least one reference that says otherwise. you call me out and i've met your challenge: i've cited three different threads and multiple posts in support of the position that 580modding is worthwhile. since you're so committed to providing such a comprehensive case for how the 600 is clearly a better headphone, where are the posts supporting your position? and without animosity, i really do want to read them because i've not seen a single post in support of your claim in all my searching on head-fi when i was deciding on which of 580 or 600 to purchase myself.
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being the classy, more mature guy that he is
, i finally got him to cough up these babies. really loved the lead-in:
Quote:
and i thanked him and read them right away:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
thank you.
ok, all these references are really old, but nonetheless:
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/sennheiser_hd600.htm (the whole article but esp later down in the comparison section)
he feels they're quite even at stock. i've read the whole article. he clearly states that the 600s are not a clear slam-dunk over the stock 580s. not really supportive of the notion that the 600s are a priori better than 580 even at stock!
at http://www.avforums.com/forums/archi.../t-161160.html (scroll down to the post by crocodile jd) crocodile jd says "from what I've read, the 580s will be very close to the 600s, they use exactly the same drivers so if you are happy with the 600s, then you will probably be happy with the 580s". again, not really supportive of the notion that the 600s are better than 580s at stock?? he does make mention of how he prefers the sound of the 600s over the 590s...
hmmm, http://stereophile.com/headphones/408/ (sterophile review/comparison of hd580 and hd600) is not as clear. he seems only to communicate that he lauds the new flagship to sennheiser's line. did i miss anything?
http://www.headphone.com/products/he...ser-hd-600.php (description of hd600 from headroom) is interesting because it makes mention of carbon fiber headbands. of course, the 650s came out sometime 2004ish? and the write-up also makes mention of those as well - meaning that the write-up was at least edited in 2004 sometime. now, there was much early speculation that there was carbon fiber on the 600s, but later on, with more and more owners scratching their cans, it was revealed that it was naught more than paint over the same plastic piece used in the 580s. no where do i see any mention of 600s being by their nature better than 580s at stock...
on http://www.onhifi.com/product/sennheiser_hd600.htm (another review of hd600 noting it's build and sound differences from hd580) explicitly states that the "600 is built to a 1dB tolerance as opposed to the 580's 3dB". objectively, i would consider the 600s quantitatively better than the 580s in this respect. however, the article (dated 2001!) makes mention of how headphone amps are necessary and how that's not all to common (not anymore!!) and how their 2dB tolerance difference is only really perceptible on really high end systems! sort of what the stereophile review mentions on page 2 of their review.
finally, http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...ht=hd580+hd600 (extolling the hd600) is a two page thread with two long posts and on "x3" about how the respective posters preferred the stock 600s over the 580mods. however, note that both had cardas cables in their possession, an upgrade that's NOT in beginners' plans. regardless, when further questioned for quantitative features in hopes of teasing out a quantitative superiority of 600s over 580mod, there was no response. all i saw were a large group of people who loved the 580mod over the 600, who said 650 was the next logical step over the 580mod, not the 600.
one thing i did learn though, that i hope even vcoheda can agree with, if for some reason you have a nicely jacked up system and headphones are all you're looking for, plus you've already got $400 cables in hand, then get the 600s, because then, at that point, you'd be doing your system a disservice to not take advantage of the 2dB tolerance difference offered by the 600...but then, why not just get the 650?? even the head-fi thread you posted last attests to the opinion that in terms of a good buy, either stick with 580mod or jump on 650.
i've read every single one of your references and have shared what i've learned from them. hows that for reasonable?
where's your response to this thread, dated much later than the early articles you cite above, at a point in time where the "carbon fiber" myth has been debunked?
or what about this entire thread, dated this month(!), discussing how the 580s are a better buy than the 600s?
let's be reasonable, shall we?
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at some point it became important to really clarify what this was all about:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichinichi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
...all i said was that the 580s are worthwhile buying and modding and that many others felt the same. vcoheda is the very person who called me out on this assertion, so i gave him links! that's all.
this has never been about the SQ you seem so fixated on. it has been about how vcoheda has said many times that "the hd600 is a better headphone than the hd580". this is called an assertion, not an opinion. and assertions are quantitative in that their supporting evidence are tangible, such as driver matching accuracy, bale material and cost - vcoheda implicitly understands this as evidenced by his initial post here; he made an assertion and presented tangible, quantifiable reasons in support of his assertion.
look at each of his opening evidences: they're all independent of the who is listening to the cans! all i've done is challenge him on each of these tangible, quantifiable claims, whether they're even true and if true, whether they really add over $100 more in value over a 580mod can. i've never attacked his right to a personal opinion, of which you are so committed to uphold.
i've attacked this "Truth" he is posting that the hd600 is by its nature, before unpacking it, before listening to it, before all else (i.e. a priori) a better headphone than a modded 580. thats all. see how its not a matter of personal opinion now?
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After the dust settled, in came several single post answers each in the spirit of:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'll just answer that question with a simple answer: No, the HD600s are not worth an extra $100 from the 580s. They sound way more like the 580s then the 650s do. There's just subtle differences in their SQ. FWIW, I would save the money and get the 580 to make sure you have a good amp.
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and that was it. i, in the spirit of fairness and openmindedness immediately read the article at every single one of these links and posted my impressions. then finally, i asked vcoheda to be fair and do the same. he never replied, guess he didn't have anything else to say in regard to my references.
sad that in the end he wouldn't take the time to "be reasonable minded" to reuse his own words and thoroughly review the links that stand in open contention to his (evidently) dated impression of the 600s.
and the OP got the 580s, i assume not from our back-and-forth, but from his own reading of the material we each threw into the ring.
i feel that vcoheda has given everyone some very good (albeit, dated) references and i've given the curious a lot of material to read over as well...the many prior discussions about 580/600 and their modding have "come out of the woodwork", so to speak.
