eARC implementation and SQ question.

[Cecala]

The difference between optical and HDMI is the kinds of audio formats supported, not audible sound quality.

As you have previously posted "I can put uncompressed 5.1 and high data rate Dolby and dts through regular HDMI." does this apply to optical as well?

 

[uncletim]

I'd like to hear what others think about this, my Sony seems to spit out 16/48 regardless of settings - HDMI or optical, although I have never had an eARC device (my TV supports) I still like the idea of running the audio into an AVR with HDMI 2.1 etc. then the TV is just a monitor, audio isn't passing though it.

I think a few streamers will pass the lossless audio from blu-ray or blu-ray files, not many, but that could be an option, the built-in Android 10 on Sony TV may be limited, might be able to get lossless audio with Kodi. Maybe the new google TV streamer being released in a couple days. (US Only?)

Plex works for me for files to TV, using onn 4k pro box for now.

optical does a good job, will not do lossless from blu-ray tho.

I'd like to know what the new Denon Home Amp (2.0 eARC) and Marantz M1 (2.0 eARC) will do as far as lossless audio. I don't think they have an optical out for DAC/headphone amp, not positive.

I have a friend with SMSL AO300 and the ARC is very limited and really same as using optical, I see no difference really

last night I enabled Sony eARC and set my TV to PCM and the Wiim Ultra (ARC) has sound. No sound at all with eARC and DD output.

I can't believe that chart Sony puts up! lame! This week I am going to the Sony service center to ask some questions. very confused about eARC copy protection etc

 

[bigshot]

As you have previously posted "I can put uncompressed 5.1 and high data rate Dolby and dts through regular HDMI." does this apply to optical as well?

No, but there would be no audible difference.

 

[uncletim]

Since playing files, what about a small NUC type PC with HDMI 2.1 like a beelink, then use the USB out to a good DAC/Headphone amp?

 

[bigshot]

Is there any problem with just using the USB out of the PC directly?

 

[castleofargh]

I don’t understand this thread, OP. You start talking about arc being limited to 5.1(depending on resolution), but you then speak of listening with a stereo sound system. You’re not going to lack bandwidth with stereo as it won’t deal with atmos dts or even pcm multichannel. In such a simple setup you either get stereo or no sound.

When you read that earc is necessary for lossless atmos, it does not mean atmos suddenly works with everything in your system. EARC just gives you a connection with enough bandwidth for the multichannel lossless audio and a 2 way stream. You do need something that handles and decode atmos(or dts), and ultimately, as the entire purpose is multichannel audio, a multichannel audio setup would seem kind of obvious. Typically a stereo DAC uses USB because for 2 channels you don’t need HDMI’s bandwidth.

Look, the most classic setup expected here is a blu-ray player connected to an AV receiver through hdmi. The receiver decodes everything it knows to, and sends the audio to a multichannel speaker system, while another hdmi cable goes to the TV for the video. that last cable only goes in one direction, from the AV receiver to the TV. If you want the basic tv programs to have their sound sent to the AV receiver, you need an extra cable, usually optical to send sound from the TV to the receiver. ARC and eARC, if the TV and receiver are compatible, come into play for that last action. It allows to Return Audio(it’s in the name) through the same HDMI cable. So instead of one to send signal from the receiver to the TV and another cable when you want the sound from the TV to go to the receiver, you can have ARC or eARC and just one HDMI cable can serve both functions. And that’s pretty much all it does.
I think that’s the most basic and typical scenario envisioned for this protocol. With eARC having a bigger bandwidth so it’s necessary for the biggest multichannel data rates(in this scenario!). As you correctly understood.

Before, people would just rely on switch, splitter, etc to send anything anywhere. Some still do.

 

[Cecala]

I don’t understand this thread, OP. You start talking about arc being limited to 5.1(depending on resolution), but you then speak of listening with a stereo sound system. You’re not going to lack bandwidth with stereo as it won’t deal with atmos dts or even pcm multichannel. In such a simple setup you either get stereo or no sound.

When you read that earc is necessary for lossless atmos, it does not mean atmos suddenly works with everything in your system. EARC just gives you a connection with enough bandwidth for the multichannel lossless audio and a 2 way stream. You do need something that handles and decode atmos(or dts), and ultimately, as the entire purpose is multichannel audio, a multichannel audio setup would seem kind of obvious. Typically a stereo DAC uses USB because for 2 channels you don’t need HDMI’s bandwidth.

Look, the most classic setup expected here is a blu-ray player connected to an AV receiver through hdmi. The receiver decodes everything it knows to, and sends the audio to a multichannel speaker system, while another hdmi cable goes to the TV for the video. that last cable only goes in one direction, from the AV receiver to the TV. If you want the basic tv programs to have their sound sent to the AV receiver, you need an extra cable, usually optical to send sound from the TV to the receiver. ARC and eARC, if the TV and receiver are compatible, come into play for that last action. It allows to Return Audio(it’s in the name) through the same HDMI cable. So instead of one to send signal from the receiver to the TV and another cable when you want the sound from the TV to go to the receiver, you can have ARC or eARC and just one HDMI cable can serve both functions. And that’s pretty much all it does.
I think that’s the most basic and typical scenario envisioned for this protocol. With eARC having a bigger bandwidth so it’s necessary for the biggest multichannel data rates(in this scenario!). As you correctly understood.

Before, people would just rely on switch, splitter, etc to send anything anywhere. Some still do.

Sorry for any confusion, I am after two channel sound only, preferably lossless with high bit-rate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After having read my Sony TVs manual it states:

HDMI ARC
Two channel linear PCM: 48 kHz 16 bits,

DIGITAL AUDIO OUT (OPTICAL)
Two channel linear PCM: 48 kHz 16 bits, (both are identical in bit depth)


From Internet:
In the context of HDMI ARC, the maximum achievable bit-rate for an uncompressed stereo signal is likely around 768 kbps
In the context of OPTICAL, For a stereo signal, a commonly used bit-rate for optical transmission is 1,536 kbps (96 kHz, 24-bit PCM)

So, from the above it looks very much that Optical for an uncompressed stereo signal is superior. My Sony Manual does not state bit-rate.

 

[uncletim]

Sorry for any confusion, I am after two channel sound only, preferably lossless with high bit-rate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After having read my Sony TVs manual it states:

HDMI ARC
Two channel linear PCM: 48 kHz 16 bits,

DIGITAL AUDIO OUT (OPTICAL)
Two channel linear PCM: 48 kHz 16 bits, (both are identical in bit depth)


From Internet:
In the context of HDMI ARC, the maximum achievable bit-rate for an uncompressed stereo signal is likely around 768 kbps
In the context of OPTICAL, For a stereo signal, a commonly used bit-rate for optical transmission is 1,536 kbps (96 kHz, 24-bit PCM)

So, from the above it looks very much that Optical for an uncompressed stereo signal is superior. My Sony Manual does not state bit-rate.

I looked at some blu-ray lossless files and they are 48Khz. bitrate is high of course. Plex plays these no problem passthrough. using 2.0 with lossless blu-ray audio is all new to me, not using headphones, but still 2.0. I'm learning at this point.

I don't think the TV is best for audio in general, but as far as getting the bitrate looks possible. If I was trying to get the very best sound and had space for equipment, I would have some other hardware involved besides wiim ultra.

Maybe I should change the Plex decoder, not sure yet. The center dialog channel is the hardest part so far.

 

[Cecala]

Your idea, "small NUC type PC with HDMI 2.1 like a beelink, then USB out to DAC/Headphone amp" sounds interesting although if the sampling rate is still 48khz then this is somewhat over the top even with a high bitrate.

 

[uncletim]

Your idea, "small NUC type PC with HDMI 2.1 like a beelink, then USB out to DAC/Headphone amp" sounds interesting although if the sampling rate is still 48khz then this is somewhat over the top even with a high bitrate.

Yeah, I'm still kind of learning of course, but it looks like all these Blu-ray files are 48khz. That bitrate!

I'm thinking of music, but my Wiim Ultra my seems to do pretty well so far, it even plays DSD music. I think with a couple firmware updates and an external DAC it's going to be a good device.

I'm just thinking if you're trying to get the highest quality audio from headphones and you're not worried about investing in hardware, putting the signal through the TV is probably not the best environment. At the level of my equipment it's probably fine. But I really do like using a PC because it's so flexible, just doesn't seem as limited. I may post something to another forum in the 2.0 channel...

I'm lost with what to set everything for, I have many devices that can be set for pass-through or not, where is the best place to make the conversion so you can get the center dialog channel properly encoded to 2.0 channels?

Sauna time lol

 

[uncletim]

Your idea, "small NUC type PC with HDMI 2.1 like a beelink, then USB out to DAC/Headphone amp" sounds interesting although if the sampling rate is still 48khz then this is somewhat over the top even with a high bitrate.

I think it would work well, I'll do some testing with one of my laptops with USB out to a DAC this week and see how that works. Many use something like Kodi, I haven't messed with it much.

I think the wiim ultra is decent, will see where they go with it, they are serious technicians for sure, as far as audio it's not a high-end DAC, acceptable for movies, but it was really more of a streamer for Tidal for me. With an external DAC might just be great. trying to decide on a DAC upgrade..

Interesting, no sound with eARC and Wiim Ultra in DD mode, but works in PCM, i remember reading something from Sony about eARC and PCM, but I don't trust their documentation after what I've seen recently.

I didn't really know blu-ray audio was 24/48khz, unless I am missing something? maybe someone will chime in on this.

What level DAC/headphone amp and headphones?

I use a separate system for headphone music, still want my 2.0 TV setup to do it all!

 

[bigshot]

I think you’re just overcomplicating things for no practical benefit. Bigger numbers aren’t necessarily better. For two channel, anything should do the job. KISS applies here.

Blu-ray player to receiver with HDMI does the job. You’ll need the TV to navigate menus for Blu-ray audio.

 

[Cecala]

I think it would work well, I'll do some testing with one of my laptops with USB out to a DAC this week and see how that works. Many use something like Kodi, I haven't messed with it much.

I think the wiim ultra is decent, will see where they go with it, they are serious technicians for sure, as far as audio it's not a high-end DAC, acceptable for movies, but it was really more of a streamer for Tidal for me. With an external DAC might just be great. trying to decide on a DAC upgrade..

Interesting, no sound with eARC and Wiim Ultra in DD mode, but works in PCM, i remember reading something from Sony about eARC and PCM, but I don't trust their documentation after what I've seen recently.

I didn't really know blu-ray audio was 24/48khz, unless I am missing something? maybe someone will chime in on this.

What level DAC/headphone amp and headphones?

I use a separate system for headphone music, still want my 2.0 TV setup to do it all!

Why not up the ante.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353354399159
Lets input the HDMI cable into this unit and let it extract via 1IIS straight into a quality DAC then to Headphone amp. Many of the S.M.S.L and Topping fare now provide an 1IIS input. Although it does not specify if it will accept an eARC HDMI, if it does this would be fantastic for 2 Channel listening.
One of the hidden secrets of these boxes is you can extract DSD files from SACDs if your SACD player has an HDMI output, not that I condone this behavior......

 

[uncletim]

Why not up the ante.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353354399159
Lets input the HDMI cable into this unit and let it extract via 1IIS straight into a quality DAC then to Headphone amp. Many of the S.M.S.L and Topping fare now provide an 1IIS input. Although it does not specify if it will accept an eARC HDMI, if it does this would be fantastic for 2 Channel listening.
One of the hidden secrets of these boxes is you can extract DSD files from SACDs if your SACD player has an HDMI output, not that I condone this behavior......

Interesting, but what about video? we are watching 4k movies no?

My SACDs are long gone, was always nearly impossible to rip those.

I think a lot comes down to what level equipment we are talking about and how much space you have. SMSL ARC isn't very robust from what i have seen.

if you just want keep things simple the Sony seems to spit out 24/48 at least with my wiim ultra. Would need external DAC/Amp, internal not great really.

never tried plugging a USB drive with files, usually just use Plex or laptop, not as simple..

 

[Cecala]

I am after audio only. Plugging in a USb or portable drive like I use works like a treat. You allow the TV to handle the Image (I use Kodi) and through the hopefully eARC connection it follows the audio workaround we're discussing here.
If you want real surround sound using headphones the company Audeze produced a phone named Mobius which connected to a PC with their software. This then connected to your display of choose. Now, this phone is discontinued although some in almost new condition can be found in the classified section here together with many threads on the topic. The phone also gave head tracking and Room Emulation as well. Audeze has been coy about it's replacement and had stated a while back that a replacement is forthcoming with much better buil quality although now refuse to talk about it, I'm not sure if the Sony takeover has any play here.
https://www.audeze.com/products/mobius

If you're after the absolute ultimate though then get one of these, not cheap:
https://smyth-research.com/product/a16-headstand/

For some youtube videos showing the unit in use.




This product has been taken up by some in Hollywood to mix their soundtracks and is used for testing. These are a real bitch to setup, the process is long and ardous although there simply is no better system at there for headphone surround. It can Render up to 24 virtual loudspeakers in any position by Internally decoding Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Auro 3D.

Regarding your last point on needing an external DAC/Amp, never use (as you know) the internal TV facility as it is mediocre at best. If you need some direction here please ask although we still need to work getting the signal out initually in the highest possible quality. Which Sony TV do you have as you stated you're getting 24/48 out which is damn good. My TV also a Sony as least going by the manual says 16/48 for both spdif and ARC. I am aiming to use the eARC connection and maybe the box posted above will give me the best SQ available.