[goldoon]

Thank you obobskivich, devhen & MattTCG.
 
 
@obobskivich
 
Your reply was really great. Now I can fully distinguish the differences between HD600 & ESP 950. From these two, after reading your words I think I go with ESP 950. It's true that HD600 is less expensive, but it needs an amp that at least costs 200 $ and so there is not much difference between their final cost. But I'm only a little bit afraid of its build quality. Some people say that it has many problems that made them to send it many times to the company. Is it that awful? and I don't know anything about electrostatic energizers. Is its own energizer good enough?
 
By the way, I really love my DT880's.

 

[obobskivich]

The E/90 is good enough, and with Koss I would never worry about build quality - you get a lifetime warranty. That said, they won't survive mobile (ab)use, but otherwise they're no worse than any other high end headphone (most of which also won't survive mobile (ab)use).

Finally, the HD 600 does not need a megabuck amp - there are plenty of less expensive options that work just fine, and depending on what equipment you already have, you may not even need that.

 

[goldoon]

Quote:

Finally, the HD 600 does not need a megabuck amp - there are plenty of less expensive options that work just fine, and depending on what equipment you already have, you may not even need that.

I only want to spend 200 $ for the amp and not more. It's not much. But I think HD600 without a decent amp would not be that good. My brother only have a Fiio E10 that is not a suitable amp for such a headphone.

 

[obobskivich]

I only want to spend 200 $ for the amp and not more. It's not much. But I think HD600 without a decent amp would not be that good. My brother only have a Fiio E10 that is not a suitable amp for such a headphone.

The E10 should actually be fine; the E9 is certainly fine. Neither is $200. I said you *don't* need to spend that much. Again, the 950 is better, and an all-inclusive package. It'll also probably make you re-think your DT880...

 

[hodgjy]

I partially agree and disagree with you.  I think, as many others do, that the HD600s scale extremely well with amps.  The better the amp, the better they HD600s sound.  Now, that's not saying expensive amps = good amps.  There are some very great sounding amps that are very affordable that sound better than top dollar boutique amps. 
 
From my experience, my HD600s scale noticeably up with my amping sources.
 
Based on sound, iPod<Yamaha receiver<<Woo 3<<<Asgard<<<<Trafomatic.
 
If we talk the increase of cost only, it would be Yamaha<iPod<Asgard<<Woo 3<<<Trafomatic.
 
 
Quote:

Finally, the HD 600 does not need a megabuck amp - there are plenty of less expensive options that work just fine, and depending on what equipment you already have, you may not even need that.

 

[obobskivich]

I partially agree and disagree with you.  I think, as many others do, that the HD600s scale extremely well with amps.  The better the amp, the better they HD600s sound.  Now, that's not saying expensive amps = good amps.  There are some very great sounding amps that are very affordable that sound better than top dollar boutique amps. 

From my experience, my HD600s scale noticeably up with my amping sources.

Based on sound, iPod
If we talk the increase of cost only, it would be Yamaha

Yes there are potential benefits with a better amplifier. But that doesn't mean anything is "unlistenable" or "unsuitable" because it isn't mega-buck. The Fiio amps are a great choice, the E9 sounds great with them. IME amps with higher Zsource sound better with the 580/600, so OTL amps can be a good choice. There's also other relatively inexpensive options, especially if you already have hi-fi equipment on-hand, or know how to shop for used components (which isn't all that hard). Spending better than a grand for HD 600s is just laughable imho. Get the 950s in that case - they're just a superior choice overall in that scenario. Like I said in my first post - the 600s can represent a better value, but the 950s are a better performer. With the MAP it makes them a bit harder to suggest though. When they cost $300 it was a better proposition. The price laddering is...unfortunate (it makes the 650s impossible to suggest, more or less).

http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=KB_Columns&document_srl=1921

 

[hodgjy]

This I completely agree with.  Getting a $1000 amp just for the HD600s greatly surpasses the law of diminishing returns.  If you have other headphones that benefit from a top amp, then it makes more sense.  The only reason I ended up with the Trafomatic is because I got the deal of the century on a used one.  I happily drove the HD600s out of the Asgard for a few months.
 
Quote:

Yes there are potential benefits with a better amplifier. But that doesn't mean anything is "unlistenable" or "unsuitable" because it isn't mega-buck. The Fiio amps are a great choice, the E9 sounds great with them. IME amps with higher Zsource sound better with the 580/600, so OTL amps can be a good choice. There's also other relatively inexpensive options, especially if you already have hi-fi equipment on-hand, or know how to shop for used components (which isn't all that hard). Spending better than a grand for HD 600s is just laughable imho. Get the 950s in that case - they're just a superior choice overall in that scenario. Like I said in my first post - the 600s can represent a better value, but the 950s are a better performer. With the MAP it makes them a bit harder to suggest though. When they cost $300 it was a better proposition. The price laddering is...unfortunate (it makes the 650s impossible to suggest, more or less).
http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=KB_Columns&document_srl=1921

 

[Magick Man]

The E10 should actually be fine; the E9 is certainly fine. Neither is $200. I said you *don't* need to spend that much. Again, the 950 is better, and an all-inclusive package. It'll also probably make you re-think your DT880...

No doubt. IMO it will make people rethink just about any other headphone purchase, based on SQ alone. They're brilliant and outclass sets that are much more expensive. I mean, I love my SR-007s, they're my favorites, but if I had the 950s first, and had to pay actual market value for the STAX, I very well may have done things differently.

 

[obobskivich]

No doubt. IMO it will make people rethink just about any other headphone purchase, based on SQ alone. They're brilliant and outclass sets that are much more expensive. I mean, I love my SR-007s, they're my favorites, but if I had the 950s first, and had to pay actual market value for the STAX, I very well may have done things differently.

I've yet to hear something better; SR-007 and SR-009 are certainly something I'd enjoy trying out, but they're 3 and 5 times the price of the 950 (list), respectively. Plus amplification (at minimum it requires a converter to use the E/90). Other headphones in or around their street (or retail) price are just...insulting, imho. Sure, they're "good," but I just come away thinking: "you know, Koss has had these out on the market continuously since 1990 or 1991, the price hasn't changed except for down (supposedly the ESP/950 was closer to $2000 when it was released - but I haven't ever seen this concretely substantiated), there is not a better (or even comparable) warranty available - why does [whatever manufacturer] think this [whatever headphone] is even acceptable?" And of course, STAX is probably the only manufacturer that has made a legitimate attempt to show them up over the last two decades, and just based on measurements I would assume the SR-009 probably got there. It also cost like what? A few years and a few million dollars to get there? That comes through in the MSRP. Again, this isn't a jab at the SR-009. I would expect it to be better; it costs five times as much. And like I said (and have said in the past), the HD 580 and 600 do a pretty good job of keeping pace for less money, although the generally insane mark-up associated with "headphone amplifiers" as a niche, and the recent price gouge (sorry "enforced MSRP") really makes it hard to keep suggesting them. There are other options of course, but most of them are either out of production or unpopular.

I'm not trying to denigrate STAX (which I've actually not tried; most reviews seem to indicate it's kind of a Chevy v Ford (or perhaps more fairly, Honda v Ford) argument between STAX and Koss ESP though - especially historically or if you're comparing with a Lambda), instead I'm thinking about a variety of "boutique" headphones that just cost a fortune and represent "bling bling." And most of them aren't all that much of an improvement or bettering over much cheaper cans, apart from generally being bright as f*k. We need +15 dB at 10khz about as much as we need precious metal plating, jewel encrusting, and exotic hardwoods.

 

[Mr.Sneis]

I love my esp950 but to be perfectly honest if I had to choose hd600 vs esp950 I'd probably keep the hd600 for the build quality alone.  Sure a lifetime warranty is great, but holding the two in your hands you definitely feel the difference and as long as you take care of your stuff you'll likely never have to make a warranty claim.  The hd600 is a great bang for our buck headphone so value for money IMO is better and you can swap amps around much easier.  Sound quality wise with the hd600 you reach that "high end" point where to get a little better is substantially more expensive.  The esp950 on Stax amp recable/retermination btw is not a walk in the park in my experience.

 

[labratoire]

Magick Man, can you do a quick comparison on ESP 950 & HiFiMAN HE-6 & Denon AH-D7000, please?

 

[Magick Man]

I've yet to hear something better; SR-007 and SR-009 are certainly something I'd enjoy trying out, but they're 3 and 5 times the price of the 950 (list), respectively. Plus amplification (at minimum it requires a converter to use the E/90). Other headphones in or around their street (or retail) price are just...insulting, imho. Sure, they're "good," but I just come away thinking: "you know, Koss has had these out on the market continuously since 1990 or 1991, the price hasn't changed except for down (supposedly the ESP/950 was closer to $2000 when it was released - but I haven't ever seen this concretely substantiated), there is not a better (or even comparable) warranty available - why does [whatever manufacturer] think this [whatever headphone] is even acceptable?" And of course, STAX is probably the only manufacturer that has made a legitimate attempt to show them up over the last two decades, and just based on measurements I would assume the SR-009 probably got there. It also cost like what? A few years and a few million dollars to get there? That comes through in the MSRP. Again, this isn't a jab at the SR-009. I would expect it to be better; it costs five times as much. And like I said (and have said in the past), the HD 580 and 600 do a pretty good job of keeping pace for less money, although the generally insane mark-up associated with "headphone amplifiers" as a niche, and the recent price gouge (sorry "enforced MSRP") really makes it hard to keep suggesting them. There are other options of course, but most of them are either out of production or unpopular.
I'm not trying to denigrate STAX (which I've actually not tried; most reviews seem to indicate it's kind of a Chevy v Ford (or perhaps more fairly, Honda v Ford) argument between STAX and Koss ESP though - especially historically or if you're comparing with a Lambda), instead I'm thinking about a variety of "boutique" headphones that just cost a fortune and represent "bling bling." And most of them aren't all that much of an improvement or bettering over much cheaper cans, apart from generally being bright as f*k. We need +15 dB at 10khz about as much as we need precious metal plating, jewel encrusting, and exotic hardwoods.

Hey, I like the exotic hardwoods. At any rate, I agree. I do feel the 007s, specifically the Mk1s, are better, but 3x better? I'd have to say "no", then by the time you factor in the price of a good stat amp... yeah, it can seem a little nutty. There are some high-priced "bling bling" cans that I really enjoy. HiFiMan HE-6s are my goto `phones for hard rock and metal, awesome tone for those genres. The new Fostex TH900s have an unmatched tonal beauty in the mids and lower treble areas. Female vocals and strings come through with a natural fluidity I've not heard before in a set of headphones. They don't do everything perfectly, I wouldn't grab them to sit back and groove to Hendrix, but they're spot-on in many ways. I do wish they made a version without the fancy lacquer, silver leaf, and platinum for around $1200, but they are what they are.

Overall, though, I look at the high end headphone market and wonder when the bubble is going to burst, this steep pricing incline, from my perspective, can't be sustainable. Before much longer, even wealthier patrons are going to step back and say, "this is too much".

BTW, why aren't the Q701s in this mid-fi discussion? You can get them for like $200 now, and that's a kick-ass value for that level of quality.

 

[obobskivich]

Hey, I like the exotic hardwoods. At any rate, I agree. I do feel the 007s, specifically the Mk1s, are better, but 3x better? I'd have to say "no", then by the time you factor in the price of a good stat amp... yeah, it can seem a little nutty. There are some high-priced "bling bling" cans that I really enjoy. HiFiMan HE-6s are my goto `phones for hard rock and metal, awesome tone for those genres. The new Fostex TH900s have an unmatched tonal beauty in the mids and lower treble areas. Female vocals and strings come through with a natural fluidity I've not heard before in a set of headphones. They don't do everything perfectly, I wouldn't grab them to sit back and groove to Hendrix, but they're spot-on in many ways. I do wish they made a version without the fancy lacquer, silver leaf, and platinum for around $1200, but they are what they are.

Yeah!

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the look or feel of some of the more exotic cans - ATH-W have always been beautiful. Where I get annoyed is the creeping prices; what started at $450 is now $900, what was once $700 is now $2000, you get the idea. Usually the focus of my "bling bling abuse" is Ultrasone - but we can trash on Beyer, Denon, Fostex, Grado, etc if you like. I mean c'mon, there should not even be discussions about channel imbalance issues on the T1. It just shouldn't even be something that anyone, anywhere, can bring up as a complaint. It's just pathetic. Things like that are what make me :angry_face:; especially when it's the insane pricing boost for these "amazing" products that has people lumping a lot of really good kit into "mid-fi" and assuming it's all fud.

Overall, though, I look at the high end headphone market and wonder when the bubble is going to burst, this steep pricing incline, from my perspective, can't be sustainable. Before much longer, even wealthier patrons are going to step back and say, "this is too much".
BTW, why aren't the Q701s in this mid-fi discussion? You can get them for like $200 now, and that's a kick-ass value for that level of quality.

+1 on both. I think the 70x were ignored because the original post didn't mention them in the inclusion, and since the ESP/950 was mentioned, it seemed pointless to go "backwards" imho. The K701 are a great can though, and honestly one of the last in-production models that can get into the ring with the ESP/950 in terms of price/performance. The Q are (depending on who you listen to) either the same or better than the K, and are ergonomically better (removable cord does it); and they come in black (only took AKG like what? six years to do that?).

 

[goldoon]

Thanks obobskivich, hodgjy, Magick Man & Mr.Sneis.
 
The results is quite clear. If I have money I'll get ESP950 and if not HD600+Fiio E9 (or O2).
 
By the way hodgjy, I've read at headfonia that Bottlehead Crack is a great amp for HD600 and according to Mike, much better than Asgard. Have you ever tried this one?
 
 
Quote:

Magick Man, can you do a quick comparison on ESP 950 & HiFiMAN HE-6 & Denon AH-D7000, please?

It would be great if you do this. I want to be sure that my brother can't find anything better than my gift

.

 

[Keithpgdrb]

If I had those cans in front of me, and had to make a choice, I would choose the koss.  it is an unbelieveable headphone, and the most affordable way to get an electrostat new.  you could do better on the used market for old stax cans, but if your willing to spend the bread, given those choices, Koss all the way.  they are truly fantastic cans, and even come with an amp to drive them.  not so with the other cans.  not portable though, if thats important to you.
 
lifetime warrenty.  hello!!