DROP + GRELL OAE1

Aug 1, 2024 at 5:26 AM Post #2,506 of 3,840
I was very much interested in these headphones, but when I saw the final design and the headband, I gave up on them, regardless of the sound.
I missed the conversation after the first pairs were received, and now, all I can read about is some people's disappointment about different expectations.

Besides expectations, these are supposed to be something very different.

I can't read comments on how they compare to the headphones in the price range they are selling for.
Are they better, equal or worse than HD660S2, Azurys, Ibasso SR3, 109 Pro, Verum, SASH...etc.?

I would still be interested in a pair in the future if the second generation comes with a different headband—wider, like the Audeze CRBN.

Or at least wide and flat as HD800S has.

Cheers!
 
Aug 1, 2024 at 7:00 AM Post #2,507 of 3,840
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Aug 1, 2024 at 7:11 AM Post #2,508 of 3,840
Going to throw more pennies on the table and ramble a bit. Two things:

1)
I feel like much animosity and personal hurt, from both people who like it and people who dislike it, would be mitigated if people remembered whether someone likes/dislikes something is literally just one person's subjective opinion, and not objective fact by any means. If someone dislikes what you like who cares-- no need for defensiveness! And if someone likes what you dislike, let them like it and have their fun and don't spoil it with excess negativity/judgment!

(I will say, though, that personal subjective judgment can be useful if more personal context is given. For example, someone saying they really like the HD800 and don't find it bright, but also adding the context that they primarily listen to classical music or "well-mastered material only" would be much much more useful than just saying that they liked the HD800 without that context)

2)
I also feel like discussions would be a lot more productive/less emotionally charged if impressions were written/described compared to a point of reference to allow readers to contextualize/triangulate for themselves, rather than describing impressions as if objective fact. For example, describing the OAE1 as "dark or super bass heavy" on its own is meaningless-- dark or bass heavy compared to what. Of course it'll sound bass heavy compared to a headphone like the HD600, which is more mid-centric and bass-light comparatively. And it'll definitely sound darker than a headphone like a HD800, which comparatively has way more upper treble. But on the other hand, one could actually describe the OAE1 as sounding more "neutral" than, say, the ZMF atticus, which IMO sounded wayy warmer with wayy more downsloped bass than the OAE1.

Impressions with context/comparison reference points are, IMO, the most helpful because they allow readers to triangulate the described sound qualities for themselves if they're familiar with the reference, and draw their own conclusions on subjective preference. Over time more of these comparison impressions will give readers a much more contextualized/richer understanding of how the OAE1 sounds and draw their own conclusions whether they prefer it or if it's worth trying out for themselves. One reason why I generally prefer reading the impressions on another "super friendly" forum instead of most other places is because leaving comparison impressions/point-of-reference/self-triangulation there is more highly encouraged/common/standard, and members are often called out to clarify/elaborate when such reference points are not stated.

For a while I really stopped caring for many youtube reviews, because many reviews just stated impressions as if objective fact without giving their point of reference. Not all reviewers do this (passion for sound and MKBHD, for example, provide great contextualized descriptions for sound and tech videos respectively), but too often impressions are given out without context/reference. It's not just video reviews either, many reviews/impressions on forums fail to indicate what reference they're comparing to. I have mixed feelings on evshrug's review, because while I really did like that he specifically provided a lot of impressions with context in his headphone comparisons sections where he compared the OAE1 with other headphones (hd800, hd650) on specific music tracks, I felt like his "sound" and other sections were a lot weaker because they failed to provide as many context/reference points.


... At any rate these are just my thoughts and opinions, and I would love more thoughts/discussion, especially about the relative importance of context/reference points when writing impressions. I really do feel that if more impressions were framed this way there would be way less confusion/animosity and much more productive discussion... but this may just be my opinion and I may be wrong :)
 
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Aug 1, 2024 at 7:21 AM Post #2,509 of 3,840
More like, don't trust reviewers on everything you see or hear. In fact a majority of reviewers can be safely assumed to not do negative reviews since their access to gadgetry and sponsorships can be blocked and this applies to not just audio but other gadgetry too.

I don't follow anyone on YouTube except Crin and that's more to keep in touch with the IEM world.

Heck I have enough Campfire Audio Iems and headphones for Crin to ban me from his studio for life 😛😛 /s
Crin quit reviewing. Runs an on-line/bm retail store now
 
Aug 1, 2024 at 7:25 AM Post #2,510 of 3,840
Aug 1, 2024 at 8:57 AM Post #2,514 of 3,840
Art and science frequently co-mingle, just ask an architect, a chef, or Leonardo DaVinci.
 
Aug 1, 2024 at 9:10 AM Post #2,515 of 3,840
I don't pay that much attention to these threads, once they turn into an "I know best" party.
They may just be more personalty conflicts than anything. lol

Don't you do the same when you say how you speak "The truth"?
Exactly.
My issue with the "listener" review was that it was presented as a fact that the OAE1 are bad, period, as "the Truth"....and to quote
"so it falls upon me to explain exactly why this line of thinking is so flawed, and why you shouldn't buy Grell OAE-1—or any headphone"
It was the "falls upon me" and then a long explanation of why soundstage and headphones are a bad idea.
And yet it is the illusion of such that I find so alluring on the the OAE1 that I expressed, some obviously hear it, some obviously don't. (but to be clear and I agree with listener, frontal soundstage as presented by speakers is not going to happen with headphones, at least not yet)
With naturally miked recordings imaging is nicely laid out left to right, with a very good sense of depth and 3 dimensional layering that I love, could almost call it soundstage :thinking:hhhmmm?,
And from that review if it is taken as gospel "you shouldn't buy Grell OAE-1" this will be quoted sadly ad-nauseam in and out of context.

My other issue with the review....
"A huge reason I got fired up enough to write this massive piece is because of people saying “OAE-1 shouldn’t be judged against HD 600, as their design goals are different.”
Yes for those exact reasons due to psycho-acoustics, and I've expressed the differences myself as our hearing will play tricks on us, I say this with over 50 years experience professionally and as a hobbiest, also having gone though almost a dozen pairs of HD600 series phones over the last 20 years years, while at first I really appreciate them, I always come to the same conclusion, while they are a highly regarded headphone, just not for me for when I'm seriously listening to music, as I expressed earlier.
And unlike many headphones the sound field can be either convex or very nicely V shaped depending on the recording bringing the singer up front or way at the back but either way never fully in the head, contrary to the classic HD600 which more or less is left ear, right ear and centre, the proverbial 3 blob, which for my preferences way too intimate and is rather bothersome.

"To me this just sounds like “we should not compare OAE-1 to things that sound good.”
I may be mistaken and maybe not the intention, but this comes across that the OAE1 are bad, but for me and others they are "good" so how can they be unilaterally labelled as not "good" or "bad"????, and if one doesn't like the HD600 and calls them bad, etc. etc. lol
:thinking:
 
Aug 1, 2024 at 9:10 AM Post #2,516 of 3,840
If it is... then it is not related to art...because it can't be both.
Perhaps, in academic terms, I am a scientist, then. :)
The answer above is...yes, I am a scientist. :ksc75smile:

Cheers!

If we are really going there, lets go there.

This is actually a fascinating topic because the term scientist in a way can be a loose term, much like many other words in the English vocabulary. However, this where that quickly becomes irrelevant as while there are multiple definitions for many things, the one that tends to be the mutually agreed upon by the largest number of agreements is the definition.

You can reject what the majority thinks, yes, but the consequences of what is to come next is to be found out from the majority. This is how the world has functioned and how humans operate on a mutally agreed mindset and will always be the way for things. One thing I will give you credit for however, is yes, there are multiple truths. I believe and will always believe, that there can be more than one solution to a problem depending on the context of the question. Its always good and very important to challenge the very answers we are told and to even find your own, but that may not always work.

Acoustic engineering is a very real thing, and the research put into it is absolutely phenomenal. Hundreds of people studied this topic to be their livelihood and understand what is sound. Many books have been published and I would recc any audiophile to read them if they so desire. I am not an acoustic engineer because I haven't spent a lot of time studying it myself. I do however, have a greater than average knowledge of acoustics as I have been spending 3 years of my own time developing headphones and In Ear Monitors to grasp an understanding of how they work.

What makes you think science cannot be art? I am a concept artist who has spent a lot of their life dedicating to art and the meaning behind it. It will be very surprising how often art and science, much like what @ApertureSilence said in basically the best way it could be put.

However, despite all of this, we should stay on topic to the OAE1. I apologise for the tangent.
 
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Aug 1, 2024 at 9:16 AM Post #2,517 of 3,840
Is music a scientific field?

Cheers!

The creation of music is an artistic endeavour but audio/music reproduction is most certainly a scientific field.
 
Aug 1, 2024 at 9:39 AM Post #2,518 of 3,840
I did read your review. Then just out of curiosity I went to your Webshop, clicked on the first headphones that appeared there, and the description of those 800 bucks phones stated "best soundstage" o.O

Now I am confused, since I interpreted, part of your OAE1 bash, tried to tell people that there cannot be soundstage with headphones at all?
Reading Listener’s review carefully, there’s no contradiction. He draws a clear distinction between what we traditionally refer to as “soundstage” - which is the psychoacoustic perception of soundstage many headphones create - and what Drop’s marketing calls its “revolutionary” “front-oriented diffuse field equalization.”

He never said that perception of soundstage isn’t real. He said that the supposedly “speaker-like” soundstage reproduction of the Grellphone isn’t real.
 
Aug 1, 2024 at 9:52 AM Post #2,519 of 3,840
"A huge reason I got fired up enough to write this massive piece is because of people saying “OAE-1 shouldn’t be judged against HD 600, as their design goals are different.”
Yes for those exact reasons due to psycho-acoustics, and I've expressed the differences myself as our hearing will play tricks on us, I say this with over 50 years experience professionally and as a hobbiest, also having gone though almost a dozen pairs of HD600 series phones over the last 20 years years, while at first I really appreciate them, I always come to the same conclusion, while they are a highly regarded headphone, just not for me for when I'm seriously listening to music, as I expressed earlier.
It took you a DOZEN HD600s over TWO DECADES to figure out you didn't like them? That's insane and hilarious. I moved on from them pretty quickly myself.
 
Aug 1, 2024 at 10:04 AM Post #2,520 of 3,840
My issue with the "listener" review was that it was presented as a fact that the OAE1 are bad, period, as "the Truth"...

And from that review if it is taken as gospel "you shouldn't buy Grell OAE-1" this will be quoted sadly ad-nauseam in and out of context.
Except the literal conclusion to the article that you’re conveniently ignoring:

Just because I’m not going to be recommending it doesn’t mean it’s impossible that you’ll enjoy it, though. And just because I say soundstage doesn’t really exist the way most people think about it doesn’t mean there isn’t something special about how the OAE-1 presents space on your head.

It might seem like I’m unilaterally making claims about the headphone being objectively poor, or spaciousness not existing, but I do genuinely believe the above: I can’t know with any certainty what is happening for a given listener who isn’t myself, so feel free to take all of the above with as many grains of salt as you’d like.

People will buy Grell OAE-1, and despite me thinking they probably shouldn’t, there are still valid reasons to do so.


The author validates everything you’ve stated in their final words.

@listenerwww’s job isn’t to address every edge case. It’s to make a generalized review, and as @Skev pointed out, the majority of people who buy this headphone will probably be disappointed if they’re looking for a HD600-alternative. Which pre-release media arguably fostered with Grell’s name.

I know I was, and it wasn’t because of how they sounded. Much like you, I loved how they sounded as someone who prefers speakers…but unfortunately has thin walls.
 
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