TheOneInYellow, we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I know you've given a lot of great of advice to users on these forums so I just wanted to offer my counterbalance opinion.
I've always gone by the rule that you should spend about 15-30% of the cost of the headphones on cabling. The amount of sound quality increase to be had from cable improvements is relatively small compared to upgrading to a higher end headphone. So for example, you spent about $1900 on the Audeze EL-8/Molecule 22 combo. For that price you can basically get a brand new LCD-3, or, if willing to buy used, an LCD-3 with a reasonably priced cable like the WyWires Red cable for example. Having heard/owned both, I can say for sure no matter what cable you use with the EL-8, it's never going to sound as excellent as the LCD-3. Same thing can be said about the Meze 99/Molecule 22 combo. For that price ($1300) you could pick up something like the Ether C or LCD-X used. I don't care what cable you slap on the Meze, it's not going to surpass the sound quality of the Ether C or an LCD-X.
Now I understand your point about if the headphones you own are the ones you plan on keeping long term and you have no plans to upgrade, but I've been around Head-Fi long enough, and have told myself that enough times to know that it's just never true, at least for me. You can look at my gear list to see that, just about everything on there at some point was "my precious". And even if you are sure that you have no plans to upgrade, I would still urge people to stick to the 15-30% rule. There just isn't enough to gain to be had just in cables alone, and this is coming from someone who owns the Comp4 myself, the difference between it an my previous cable (WyWires Red) is honestly pretty small, despite the cost. I even did a blind test while my brother was out here to see if he could hear the difference between the Comp4 & Stock Cables on my HE1000's and he had a tough time hearing a difference, though in fairness this is not his hobby so he doesn't really know what to listen for.
Anyway, I'd just urge people to use value judgement when choosing headphone cables. Yes, I am a believer that they can make a positive difference, but even I know that the difference is relatively small in comparison to the differences between gear (headphones/amps/DACS).
Also, I meant to ask, why not just get an adapter for the Meze's if you already own the Molecule 22? Peter was able to do something similar for me with my DHC Comp 4 cable, I got adapters for my LCD-3's so I can use it with them and my HE1000 and only had to pay for 1 cable. It seems like taking the time to switch out the cable is worth saving about $1000?
TheOneInYellow, we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I know you've given a lot of great of advice to users on these forums so I just wanted to offer my counterbalance opinion.
I've always gone by the rule that you should spend about 15-30% of the cost of the headphones on cabling. The amount of sound quality increase to be had from cable improvements is relatively small compared to upgrading to a higher end headphone. So for example, you spent about $1900 on the Audeze EL-8/Molecule 22 combo. For that price you can basically get a brand new LCD-3, or, if willing to buy used, an LCD-3 with a reasonably priced cable like the WyWires Red cable for example. Having heard/owned both, I can say for sure no matter what cable you use with the EL-8, it's never going to sound as excellent as the LCD-3. Same thing can be said about the Meze 99/Molecule 22 combo. For that price ($1300) you could pick up something like the Ether C or LCD-X used. I don't care what cable you slap on the Meze, it's not going to surpass the sound quality of the Ether C or an LCD-X.
Now I understand your point about if the headphones you own are the ones you plan on keeping long term and you have no plans to upgrade, but I've been around Head-Fi long enough, and have told myself that enough times to know that it's just never true, at least for me. You can look at my gear list to see that, just about everything on there at some point was "my precious". And even if you are sure that you have no plans to upgrade, I would still urge people to stick to the 15-30% rule. There just isn't enough to gain to be had just in cables alone, and this is coming from someone who owns the Comp4 myself, the difference between it an my previous cable (WyWires Red) is honestly pretty small, despite the cost. I even did a blind test while my brother was out here to see if he could hear the difference between the Comp4 & Stock Cables on my HE1000's and he had a tough time hearing a difference, though in fairness this is not his hobby so he doesn't really know what to listen for.
Anyway, I'd just urge people to use value judgement when choosing headphone cables. Yes, I am a believer that they can make a positive difference, but even I know that the difference is relatively small in comparison to the differences between gear (headphones/amps/DACS).
Also, I meant to ask, why not just get an adapter for the Meze's if you already own the Molecule 22? Peter was able to do something similar for me with my DHC Comp 4 cable, I got adapters for my LCD-3's so I can use it with them and my HE1000 and only had to pay for 1 cable. It seems like taking the time to switch out the cable is worth saving about $1000?
Thank you for the honesty dude, it's good and refreshing.
I will say that I think you missed quiet a few bits of my post.
I went to great lengths to stress how and why I did what I did, and based on your reply, that may have been missed or misunderstood.
Before I begin, this is a long reply.
That is not because I am trying to be a pain (I hope), difficult, or deliberate. I write like this to genuinely help others, to show other audiophiles how Head-Fi'ers similar to myself think, work and interact in the audiophile arena, and give alternative view points.
I do not expect others to follow or agree, but maybe find a new idea, something interesting, or learn something new, on their own personal journey of audio.
Indeed, in some ways, this post is a reflection of my journey, my goals, my passion.
I hope it is, at least, enjoyable ^^
---
So, to reiterate upon my last post and expand, I shall start with what I am trying to achieve for my audio Nirvana:
Portable headphones.
This would have been Audeze Sine, but because of the Audeze EL-8 Titanium + DHC Elite 22, and because I didn't want another similar sounding headphone, I nearly skipped this category.
Meze Headphones 99 Classics was a surprise (blame Meze ha ha), and fills this category. I shall try to get the best cable for it for the ultimate portable headphone combo.
Once done, I consider this setup complete, and do not envisage to upgrade this category for a significant amount of time.
Dual Portable/At Home Headphones.
This is the Audeze EL-8 Titanium + DHC Molecule Elite 22 Silver 4-Wire balanced cable.
I consider this setup complete, and do not envisage to upgrade this category for a significant amount of time.
Summit-fi Headphones.
My final project, to get at least two of the world's best end-game summit-fi headphones, closed-back and open-backed.
This project has yet to commence (working on getting my desktop setup complete first) and may take a long while before I initiate it.
This is an incomplete project with no time frame at present and will commence in the future. Unless I somehow acquire ungodly amounts of finance weeeeeeee.
Ok, so, regarding cost, yes, at $1900 that I spent on EL-8 Ti + DHC Elite 22, I could have gotten an Audeze 2016 LCD-3 (ignoring all previous discontinued models).
However, the 2016 LCD-3 is neither:
Closed back
Transportable
Swivel earcups
Quiet possibly the most advanced pseudo-portable/transportable headphones currently.
The EL-8 Titanium is all of those above (and so is the 2016 EL-8 CB, as both have the same internal updated drivers).
Therefore, I am not talking about the best sounding headphone for dollar/pound (I'm from the UK, or whatever that means anymore...).
If I were, we wouldn't be having this conversation (because you are correct in most of your counterbalance).
What my discussion was: if I found a headphone that was high-end for its purpose, and wish to use a cable to reduce the most amount of noise possible, and have the best electrical conductivity, then I will invest into such a scenario.
Before I go further, allow me to refer to an earlier post I wrote on this thread here.
In summary, cables, to me, have two goals:
Reduce noise and external noise
Be an excellent conductor of electricity
With that in mind, yes other manufacturers do make excellent cables, and as wrote in my post in that link, I have a number of manufacturers who I think are amazing and honest with cable manufacturing.
However, my goal is not to have the best 'sounding' cable, but the best cable that reduces as much noise as possible, and has incredible electrical conductivity.
As both the DHC Complement4 and Spore4 cables are far too extreme for portable or transportable use, I elected for Peter's third TOTL cable, the Molecule Elite 22, which is actually a Complement4 cable without extra shielding and more flexibility anyway!
For me, by using this cable, I never need to think of upgrading any higher for the EL-8 again, ever.
The same is a possibility for the Meze 99 Classics.
This should also address the other extremely valid point you made; that the cost of a headphone cable to that of a headphone should be a percentage of total cost and relative overall.
For many, I agree, this should be relative, and in many cases not exceed the cost of the cans.
Yet as you can see from my opinions on cables, I have a wildly differing, alternative viewpoint: a cable to me should be treated as an extension of a headphone, and I wish to have the lowest noise and highest conductivity cable for whatever headphone I use on a long-term basis.
In some ways, I will never buy anything but the best cable for a headphone going forward, as long as that cable reflects said headphone (thus, if a headphone is portable or transportable, then a flexible cable is prudent).
Ok, so, to explain:
I am not trying to get the best headphones in the world at a specific price point.
I am trying to get the best headphone experience in very specific categories of headphones (portable only, transportable only, home only), and each category I treat separately, and invest in separately, including cables.
Now, for the obvious: my EL-8 Titanium with DHC Molecule Elite 22 Silver will never beat a 2016 LCD-3 in sound quality, but that was never my goal or intention at all either.
My goal was to have the best sounding headphones away-from-home and at home, for which the combo above achieved. The 2016 LCD-3 is never going to beat those requirements (needs dedicated amp/not easy to drive, sound leakage so non-commutable/at home use only, cannot rest earpads against body, not easy to pack away, etc).
So, in the category of pseudo-portable high-end headphones ie transportable, the EL-8 Titanium met that goal, and remains untouchable in this one specific category for me. Thus, I wanted this headphone to perform at its best with excellent signal wires and the least amount of noise on such wires.
This makes my EL-8 Titanium + DHC Elite 22 amongst the highest performing transportable headphones in the world.
That was my my goal.
My next point is regarding using DHC tails, something you mentioned and is a great idea.
It is an elegant solution, however the issue is two fold.
The EL-8 series (both 2015 and 2016) uses propriety Zync connectors. It is difficult to work with. This was a one-off cable for me, and at the time I had no intention of getting another headphone below this one for portable use.
The Meze 99 Classics was therefore a complete surprise, aided by Meze, and during our relationship I found a home for them, so I decided to own a pair. Unfortunately the earcup jacks are incredibly small bored, and Meze, myself and DHC are working on a solution (Peter has posted on FB a mod that should allow custom cables from anyone to work with 99 Classics). As I ordered and Peter was then building my EL-8 Elite 22 cable prior to 99 Classics even being a consideration months ago, there isn't a way to comfortably modify my current Elite 22 to have tails without extreme work and time. Peter and I are working on a separate Elite 22 cable project for the 99 Classics.
Going back a bit, though I have no need to use balanced silver cables with 99 Classics, I wish to do so, and wish to have the best highest performing portable cans on the planet for when the EL-8 Ti + Elite 22 is too much to carry (ie when I'm not using my messenger bag).
Regarding not upgrading any further, again I went to great lengths to explain my position, but I shall rephrase.
I never said I will never upgrade at all; this is what I meant:
Unless I find greater portable and/or transportable headphones (the first two categories as stated at the beginning of this post) than either 99 Classics and EL-8 Titanium, I am not upgrading these specific categories of portable/transportable headphones.
In this regard, I have achieved getting the best, sonically differing portable and transportable cans that I can (with cables), and I am not seeking to upgrade further in those categories for a very long time.
I will and am going to purchase new headphones for home use exclusively. Such headphones will now be end-game; no more steps.
I will buy the best cables for such headphones as well, most likely Complement4 (Spore4 is too unwieldy).
I know this is a long post, but I sincerely hope that this explains the journey and goals I am personally trying to achieve, and how far I am willing to go.
If you have read all of this, I am genuinely humbled; thank you from the bottom of my heart (hugs)!
^^
(Btw, if you quote me, put my quote into spoiler tags...I do talk a lot ).
I get what you are saying, you were looking for a portable setup and not TOTL cans. My point was simply that people looking to get after market cables should look to spend between 15-30% of the cost of the headphones on cables.
For example, your meze's are one third the price of THE CABLE!!! I'm sorry but that's just insane to me. Like I said before, it's your money so I have no say in what you decide to do with it, I just don't want to see newer head-fi'ers thinking that you need to spend $1000 on a cable to max out the performance on a $300 dollar headphone, it is completely unneccassary and I highly doubt you would notice the diffrence between a $100 dollar cable and a $1000 dollar cable because ultimately the headphone will be holding back the system in that case.
I get what you are saying, you were looking for a portable setup and not TOTL cans. My point was simply that people looking to get after market cables should look to spend between 15-30% of the cost of the headphones on cables.
For example, your meze's are one third the price of THE CABLE!!! I'm sorry but that's just insane to me. Like I said before, it's your money so I have no say in what you decide to do with it, I just don't want to see newer head-fi'ers thinking that you need to spend $1000 on a cable to max out the performance on a $300 dollar headphone, it is completely unneccassary and I highly doubt you would notice the diffrence between a $100 dollar cable and a $1000 dollar cable because ultimately the headphone will be holding back the system in that case.
One more piece to the cable puzzle is the fact that you can, more often then not, use the high end cable with whatever cans you plan to purchase in the future by using an adapter or having the cable re-terminated. I plan on using the Comp 4 I have with a newer headphone purchase down the road. The TH900 I couple it with is a damn good can but it's certainly not the best.
Neither opinion is wrong and you both offer great advice but it all boils down, as both of you have said, to rational perspective, choice and finances.
Short tail, one end he hardwires to the drivers with Audeze male 4-pin mini XLR's at the other end. He can then make the main cable with female 4-pin mini XLR's on one end and whatever connector you want to connect to the headamp. Email him, he'd be glad to help you I'm sure.
Wait, I just saw you have the MKII's. You're going to have to email him to see if he has that type of connector for his cables.
I get what you are saying, you were looking for a portable setup and not TOTL cans. My point was simply that people looking to get after market cables should look to spend between 15-30% of the cost of the headphones on cables.
For example, your meze's are one third the price of THE CABLE!!! I'm sorry but that's just insane to me. Like I said before, it's your money so I have no say in what you decide to do with it, I just don't want to see newer head-fi'ers thinking that you need to spend $1000 on a cable to max out the performance on a $300 dollar headphone, it is completely unneccassary and I highly doubt you would notice the diffrence between a $100 dollar cable and a $1000 dollar cable because ultimately the headphone will be holding back the system in that case.
One more piece to the cable puzzle is the fact that you can, more often then not, use the high end cable with whatever cans you plan to purchase in the future by using an adapter or having the cable re-terminated. I plan on using the Comp 4 I have with a newer headphone purchase down the road. The TH900 I couple it with is a damn good can but it's certainly not the best.
Neither opinion is wrong and you both offer great advice but it all boils down, as both of you have said, to rational perspective, choice and finances.
That's an advantage that I didn't post but you are correct. Having the Elite 22 will give me a long set of years with reterminations if necessary.
You are spot on about differing opinions, and that was the underlying theme of my post:
Some audiophiles prefer to have great cables in relation to cost of headphones for their enjoyment
Some audiophiles want THE best cables for headphones regardless of the overall cost (based on research and knowledge for said audiophiles personal happiness, not for for ego or showing off).
For such audiophiles, best may mean different things, but I've exhaustively explained my stance on what I consider a best cable to be.
There are also those in between the two extremes too, or have gear that is too difficult or expensive to modify for aftermarket cable use, or simply enjoy stock cables.
I should add, the idea of getting an an aftermarket cable for headphones is extreme unto itself, so we must be the sane bunch tee hee x
To goldendarko, I really don't disagree with your posts except in two areas:
Getting these insane cables is not, for me, about differences between them and lower cost options, but reassurance and guarantee that the expensive cables I have will never be the weakest link in any audio chain I use.
With lower noise floor, I gain claritym. With better electrical conductivity, better transient and sonic response.
Yet those are a bonus. It would be my source, amplifier, and transducer that could be weak or strong links in my chain of gear. I am just eliminating cables as being the weakest link for all future projects I undertake. Not going to lie, they also look beautiful!
Add germay0653 point that such cables can also be used on other headphones with mild modification too.
That is my reasoning.
More so, I don't think giving out percentages help; rather to those audiophiles who want to balance the cost of cables to headphones, go with your gut feeling, finances, advice on here, and the cable maker.
As a rule of thumb, many audiophiles spend a fraction on cables relative to cost of headphones, but match that with what you determine value to mean to you.
I will echo what goldendarko has said to those who read this particular topic; you don't have to spend much on cables to enjoy your headphones at all. You may not need to spend anything!
However, consider your finances and goals, do lots of research, and make contact with aftermarket cable makers for further advice.
My way of thinking is very extreme, only a handful of audiophiles will go as far as I have done, but that is simply my personal journey. Yours most likely will be different.
Create your own journeys, and share to others!
^^
(P.S. I am working with Peter to create a DHC Molecule Elite 22 Silver 4-Wire Triple Threat Meze 99 Classics balanced cable, terminated in 2.5 mm balanced jack for adapter use. That should give me greater flexibility for the future!).
[Edited post lightly for greater readability...I hope...].
Put real effort into these last few posts so thank you to all who have read and gave feedback!
My high-end home setup consists of (and what I'm shortly acquiring) as follows:
Onkyo DP-X1 digital audio player (as source)
Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon (arriving in September) with AudioQuest power cable
Double Helix Cables interconnect (Molecule Elite 22 Silver or Complement4 Silver, between DP-X1 and Carbon). This will be available around the time of Liquid Carbon being available to deliver
As for TOTL headphones, on my radar is Audeze 2016 LCD-4 200 Ohm, Mr Speakers Ether C, Noble Audio K10 CIEM (and yes, each will have a balanced DHC cable terminated in 2.5 mm jack).
However, I'm not financing any of those above, so new headphones could come out and replace this list.
EDIT:
Forgot to add that DHC interconnects are a later acquirement, and my SubPac S2, on this list; sos...
Nice setup, Yeah I'd like to check out the LCD-4 eventually, if it was 3k I would swing it but 4k is just a bit too much for one pair of headphones right now. I can say the Ether C is an excellent headphone, best closed back one I've heard yet. Just make sure you prefer a neutral sound signature because that's exactly what it's going to give you. I will be pitting it against the TH-900 this weekend to see which TOTL closed back headphone reigns supreme!
I wholeheartedly agree on you, buddy! I do also enjoy maximizing performance of my current gear, even if this is not so high-end equipment (for this moment).
Here is mine HD598's and iFi iDAC2 rocking completely overkilled pure silver cables.
Nice setup, Yeah I'd like to check out the LCD-4 eventually, if it was 3k I would swing it but 4k is just a bit too much for one pair of headphones right now. I can say the Ether C is an excellent headphone, best closed back one I've heard yet. Just make sure you prefer a neutral sound signature because that's exactly what it's going to give you. I will be pitting it against the TH-900 this weekend to see which TOTL closed back headphone reigns supreme!
Oh I can't wait to read your thoughts comparing to those titanic TOTL closed back's! I'll be honest, the Fostex TH-900 nearly won me over with the Urushi lacquer and now detachable cables!
However, I love both musical and neutral cans (which, to me, are musical), but not clinical. The Mr Speakers Ether C, based on what I've read, is exactly that, neutral, but not clinical.
Why I elected to skip the Audeze 2016 LCD-XC is because I do see myself as getting the Audeze 2016 LCD-4 200 Ohm, love the Audeze bass thwack pressure, and didn't want too many Audeze headphones; I am amorphous with gear and like different sonic presentations.
Furthermore, the Ether C is lighter than any LCD-XC model; a big plus.
However, I could say that the 2016 LCD-4 is itself a tad neutral, so maybe the Fostex TH-900 MkII is better?
But then the Ether C is also perfect for gaming with a AntLion ModMic 4.0 attachment....
GRR, decisions!
By the way, I'm not thinking of HiFiMan HE-1000, which at one time was my end-game headphone I wanted, because the build doesn't scream to me that great for what it costs.
None of this matters because I am a long-way off financing anything around £2000 - £3000 for TOTL headphones.
However, if I was financing for a TOTL, the first headphone would be the Noble Audio K10 custom in-ear monitors, even over Empire Ears. The Noble Audio are artisan pieces of gear, and according to nearly every review, have a coherent sound.
If you could distill all my tastes in audio gear, that's what I am looking for, coherence (this is why I love the updated and re-voiced Audeze EL-8 series; they are now coherent)! Ditto the Meze 99 Classics, even though not technical headphones, the music sounds like it is from a single source overall.
So, any TOTL headphones I get must have that organic coherent quality.
That's what worried me about the (older) TH-900 and LCD-XC, and partially worries me regarding 2016 LCD-4.
The Ether C doesn't worry me, I think they really are coherent.
...
Wait...
...
....
.....
......
.......hmm...think I answered my own question on what TOTL closed backs I want; Noble K10 CIEM and Mr Speakers Ether C.
I wholeheartedly agree on you, buddy! I do also enjoy maximizing performance of my current gear, even if this is not so high-end equipment (for this moment).
Here is mine HD598's and iFi iDAC2 rocking completely overkilled pure silver cables.
At least you know it's not your cables that are gonna cause any issues in that setup, and they will last you for years (6 months in this hobby...godamit Head-Fi...).
Must be a fantastic sounding rig
Btw, get the iFi Audio iUSBPower 3.0, but use that same dual-headed USB you have there: have the data-head from PC, power-head to iUSBPower 3.0, and the last USB connection to DAC (or iPurifier 2.0 then DAC), which I assume is the Micro iDSD.
(I own the older iFi Audio Gemini, iUSBPower and iPurifier, but now that I have the Onkyo DP-X1 I am not currently using a laptop as source. This eliminates me needing to get a DAC too, again, for now).
OK. I finally have chance (pardon my laziness) to test the two cables: Comp4 Silver and Elite 22awg Silver. As said before I have both cables adapted for IEM use.
More cableporns first, if you like?
Elite22:
CIEM 2-pin connectors, the R-side has a red ring on it:
The Honeycomb silver splitter. You can definitely feel the weight when using it with Elite22. I'm not saying the splitter is heavy, it's just the Elite22 is relatively lightweight.
The new TRRS 2.5mm connector.
It's much smaller in size compared to what being used for Comp4.
And the "bigger" brother, Comp4 Silver:
The lovely, black-colour-matched CIEM connectors:
Another size comparison between the two cables:
Currently I am using the cables with Noble Audio K10 (that @TheOneInYellow wants) and AK100 II, and various high resolution music files:
Now comes the very short impression. @TheOneInYellow had already covered the differences in between the two cables in previous posts. In short, the silver wires, the bundling method, the carbon core are all the same. However, the Elite22 doesn't have the shielding and damping materials the Comp4 has. This actually allow the Elite22 to have a much smaller diameter than the bigger brother. In my application to use them for IEM, the size reduction is very much appreciated, not to mention it's a lot softer as well. Hence more comfortable to wear over the ears.
Now comes the question, are there any (subjective-) sonic differences due to the lacking damping/shielding materials? I was quite skeptical, firstly, my gears are not TOTL (except maybe K10), and they are definitely not headphone/desktop level equipments where these cables are intended for (at least the Comp4); Secondly, both cables are pretty top-end and similar, I imagine the difference could be less than 10%. Would the combinations reveal any differences between the two cables?
Surprisingly, there IS a difference! Both cables present the mid/treble very nice. On some occasions, the Elite22 is more air-ly and relax. It's like you have a larger room with more air to breath (Not corresponding to soundstage, though). On the other hand, the Comp4 gives you a deeper and wider soundstage than Elite22, with a tad more meaty and controlled sound. To exaggerate, Elite22 is the younger sister who is more energetic, easily excited and eager to present. While Comp4 is like an elder brother, calmer, with more experience and skills to present the same thing.
Landing back on the ground, the differences isn't that dramatic if I'm not A/B testing the two cables repetitively, so YMMV. To me, once I know where to find them, it's getting noticeable.
OK. I finally have chance (pardon my laziness) to test the two cables: Comp4 Silver and Elite 22awg Silver. As said before I have both cables adapted for IEM use.
And the "bigger" brother, Comp4 Silver:
The lovely, black-colour-matched CIEM connectors:
Landing back on the ground, the differences isn't that dramatic if I'm not A/B testing the two cables repetitively, so YMMV. To me, once I know where to find them, it's getting noticeable.
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ha ha), and fills this category. I shall try to get the best cable for it for the ultimate portable headphone combo.
).
