[JRG1990]

I think the Pro gear is more for features, it often has balanced outputs, mic inputs etc, spdif in & out , analog to digital conversion, while consumer dacs don't. I use a Emu404 I got it because it was the cheapest option with balanced outputs and usb,coax and optical in.

 

[NA Blur]

Personally I heard the biggest improvement by changing first my headphones then my amp.  Having a crappy DAC, say the one in my PC, did give rise to great improvement with a better DAC.  When I did extensive DAC testing at home between my TEAC, Bithead, Ultra Desktop, and m903, all of the DAC's sounded really close to each other.  The biggest difference was heard switching between amps and of course headphones.  I could definitely hear how each amp altered the sound.
 
In the end it is all signal processing and a DAC basically either does its job well or not really at all.  A good low cost DAC will sound just as good as a high cost one to most of our ears, but amps and headphones are completely different.  They can have drastic effects on the sound because they take take the DA process and start playing around with the signal.  They amplify it, shift the phase, attenuate it, and even add or subtract noise.  Those are all significant changes to the signal that can lead to really good or really bad things for your listening experience.
 
I just want to keep those of you out there from buying terrible DAC's or at least not understanding that a better DAC can really help clean up the signal processing from digital devices like your PC.
 
It did surprise me how similar all of the DAC's I have around sound, but there is no question that the one in my PC is terribly noisy probably caused by a poor SNR and high jitter.
 
It is a little difficult to directly compare DAC's without introducing another component that may be built into the DAC.  The only way I did this was to drive one DAC/amp unit with only another DAC not another DAC/amp combo.  This way I could be sure that the only change was the DAC.  My ear really could not hear the difference.  This is why measurements are a good place to start.  They are an indicator of the quality of components, build, and signal processing, but not necessarily how it will sound.

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

Because you keep applying price tags to levels of performance.

You haven't read carefully enough, then... a DAC can range from 100 to 20,000€, I've said then an entry level DAC (150? 200€?) is more than enough most of the times, while a pro stereo DAC (700€? 1000€?) can make you reach absolute excellence with a well-coupled source/computer/mediaplayer and amp. 
 
It's not price tagging. It's giving examples in the bottom range, and in the bottom (price) range of the audiofoolish market, you can get absolute quality already.
 
At a certain (but not-so-high) point, price tagging starts to be completely independent from objective quality, but especially in the bottom range, you pay for what you get, especially in the pro sector, which has to do with industrial marketing, not the consumer one. That's not a fools' market.
 
 

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

I think the Pro gear is more for features, it often has balanced outputs, mic inputs etc, spdif in & out , analog to digital conversion, while consumer dacs don't. I use a Emu404 I got it because it was the cheapest option with balanced outputs and usb,coax and optical in.

 
Mind that balanced inputs/outputs, especially in the low-range pro market, are put there just to connect the DAC to balanced cables, which can cover longer distances.
It's just for handling longer cables that are necessary in studio applications, that any piece of pro gear has balanced I/O. Mutual compatibility. Their being there does not imply a balanced internal circuit, nor necessairly a more transparent or a higher quality one.
 
The "top" Denon universal player, features, for instance, unbalanced analog multichannel outs, but internally balanced analog output stages behind the panel.
But balanced sockets would have been useless in that case... Because who has a balanced 8channel preamplifier in their living room...

 

[CatboyMac]

My DAC/amp costs $30 (Asus Xonar DG) and I'm fairly happy with it. I might spring for an Essence STX way down the road if I finally end up getting that HD650/Q701, but for now, I'm more than happy.

 

[Edoardo]

Quote:

My DAC/amp costs $30 (Asus Xonar DG) and I'm fairly happy with it. I might spring for an Essence STX way down the road if I finally end up getting that HD650/Q701, but for now, I'm more than happy.

You're so lucky! 

 I've got a pair of HD650 and I'm always looking for an amp... They make you fear you're always losing something!

 

[JRG1990]

Quote:

 
Mind that balanced inputs/outputs, especially in the low-range pro market, are put there just to connect the DAC to balanced cables, which can cover longer distances.
It's just for handling longer cables that are necessary in studio applications, that any piece of pro gear has balanced I/O. Mutual compatibility. Their being there does not imply a balanced internal circuit, nor necessairly a more transparent or a higher quality one.
 
The "top" Denon universal player, features, for instance, unbalanced analog multichannel outs, but internally balanced analog output stages behind the panel.
But balanced sockets would have been useless in that case... Because who has a balanced 8channel preamplifier in their living room...

 
yea the cheaper pro gear uses balancing transformers that unbalance the signal as it enters the device, but it doesn't really matter as the internal wiring in the devices is normally just a few inches long, so the advantage of balanced is still there for the metres of extenal wiring until the signal is unbalanced in the device for the last couple of inches run in the device.
 

 

[leeperry]

There's a team that thinks the source is the most important(and I kinda agree), but usually this kind of thread ends up in all the usual suspects explaining and trying to prove based on biased measurements that every DAC sounds the same and that all audible differences are placebo. I would suggest listening to a few DAC's and make your own opinion, asking this question here is a waste of time IMHO. Someone said "talking about music is like dancing about architecture", we all hear differently and have different expectations. All that matters is YOUR enjoyment, not some flawed oscilloscope readings

 

[CatboyMac]

DAC quality does really matter, but the difference between DACs is often overstated. When looking for a soundcard or a standalone DAC/Amp, focus on the features you want, and not price or brand names.

 

[Vanhornmp]

I've heard so

 

[Willakan]

Quote:

There's a team that thinks the source is the most important(and I kinda agree), but usually this kind of thread ends up in all the usual suspects explaining and trying to prove based on biased measurements that every DAC sounds the same and that all audible differences are placebo. I would suggest listening to a few DAC's and make your own opinion, asking this question here is a waste of time IMHO. Someone said "talking about music is like dancing about architecture", we all hear differently and have different expectations. All that matters is YOUR enjoyment, not some flawed oscilloscope readings

Not again...
Audio reproduction =/ music.
Good music is subjective, good audio reproduction in terms of accuracy is not. Additionally, every DAC does not sound the same. If you honestly believe in your own straw men, even after they are pointed out to you repeatedly, you are likely beyond hope - but we knew that already.
Now, I'll leave before you start posting your hilarious pictures in lieu of anything sane and everything heads downhill. Arguing with someone who is genuinely incapable of grasping the simplest logical principles is not worth the ban.
 
 

 

[Gazza]

This is to me why vinyl is fantastic and still relevant today. A well made modern DAC takes digital pretty far along the chain of sublime enjoyment but it ultimately has a ceiling. Vinyl on the other hand just keeps sounding better and better as you go up the chain as the only way to extract more info from the grooves is through a better cartridge and everything downstream to the phonostage. This is why I'm pretty much overjoyed with my Rega DAC for digital because my analogue rig is what I go to for ultimate musical enjoyment. 

 

[audiogamma]

I am no expert, but I've spent a lot of cash on boutique audio and the one thing I have learned is to buy PRO AUDIO gear whenever possible. The boutique stuff is always a headache. Stick with Apogee, RME, USBPre, Benchmark, MYTEK, Grace, etc. Just IMHO.

 

[sterling1]

I've listened to discussions about ADC and DAC since Dr. Stockham presented his Soundstream Digital Recorder. And, I've witnessed the marketing of DACs go  from hype about error correction, dithering, clocking, and resolution, back in the early 80's, to jitter today. I even remember when DDD CD's were the rage. Now, we're told  media mastered in analog is better. Talk about coming full circle.. At any rate, I'm a big fan of digital processing. It's made the concept of home and mobile entertainment more attractive to me for a multitude of reasons, but, mostly, I was irritated with the snap, crackle, and pop of vinyl, as well as the insane cost to hear all that's said to be in the groove. The vinyl promoters are quiet however about having no solution  for pops; yet, by now you'd think there would be pop-less vinyl or something, too bad. I'd like to fire up my Sony PS-4750 with Shure V15V type MR again. Thing is, since even the DAC's found in $10 blister packed CD players sound pretty good today, why ponder this kind of stuff, when instead we could put our arms around something more interesting, like DDD bras and the women who wear em.

 

[glenda]

Most modern headphones operate at a lower Voltage level than the DAC output.   Except extreme cases like the modern orthos,  most of the time all the amp is doing is buffering a volume pot after the DAC at a lower Vrms.   So if you have good efficient headphones you are listening to the DAC much more so than with speakers.   The myth that the source doesn't matter comes from the old speaker guys with 2% THD at 100W from their amp and with speakers that added another 10%THD,  of course the source didn't matter.   Headphones on your head are much different.