[M Rael]

What a fun thread to read.

DanG is correct in noting that glowing reviews have a habit of lighting a fire under people, even with very expensive and discontinued headphones. If Vertigo had been more unamimous and 'Tomcat-like' in his praise of the R10 I would have taken the plunge with them myself, (and I remember reading everything he said about them) but I passed. Markl got the same pair I had been soo very close to buying. I bought another, cheaper, wood headphone instead.

It could be that we are in the middle of a long lull as far as better and more expensive headphones are concerned. There might not be anything new and better in the $700+ range for years. If thats true then the headphones mentioned at the start of this thread really will take on a greater importance as time passes. Who will introduce a new $700+ dynamic headphone next year?? Something tells me nobody. Nobody will. The W2002 barely counts since it was strictly a limited edition 40th anniversary model. Eliminate it, and what has really changed in the high end dynamic headphone market the past several years? Nothing!

The pillars of dynamic headphone listening might still be the same many years from now: the R10, HP1000 & RS1, HD600, W2002, K1000.

This might be 'the good old days.'

 

[markl]

Quote:

Markl got the same pair I had been soo very close to buying. I bought another, cheaper, wood headphone instead.

Hi Mark,
That other wood phone, as you know, is quite good, but as I posted-- it's no Sony R10.

Quote:

It could be that we are in the middle of a long lull as far as better and more expensive headphones are concerned. There might not be anything new and better in the $700+ range for years. I

I'm afraid I agree with MRael here. We are far far away from having any dynamic headphone that can compete with the R10 or even the W2002.

Quote:

If thats true then the headphones mentioned at the start of this thread really will take on a greater importance as time passes. Who will introduce a new $700+ dynamic headphone next year?? Something tells me nobody. Nobody will. The W2002 barely counts since it was strictly a limited edition 40th anniversary model. Eliminate it, and what has really changed in the high end dynamic headphone market the past several years? Nothing!

Sadly, headphones are an audio backwater, as I've said many times. This is sad but true.

markl

 

[Vertigo-1]

This is quickly becoming a pissing match over something that will never be solved for all eternity, so I'm bowing out.

We all know there is no absolutes in audio. What is absolute to every individual isn't absolute to the rest of the world. So yes, me thinking the R10s are the best dynamic headphone there is doesn't make them so on the absolute scale. And I know they are far from being the best headphone period.

The pissing contest I'm referring to is the case of the Omega II vs. R10. I'll contend that we are referring to another class of headphones, a super class of megabuck headphones if you will, but nonetheless there is still the idea of preferences. You now have the R10s, Omega II, and Orpheus, instead of 50+ to choose from. I think for my tastes, I will ultimately end up preferring the Omega IIs to everything I've heard to date minus the Orpheus, but it's much too soon for me to say that yet. I've owned the R10s for a year or more, and the Omega II system is just a month old now. Others may like an R10 based system. I think I prefer the Omega II system so far over an R10 system. Oh well. Not exactly a "problem" in my eyes.

I have no idea how good or bad the STAX amps are relative to anything else, but that I'm liking the Omega IIs at all so far is a good sign. A Gilmore would only mean them getting better I assume.

 

[Tuberoller]

Quote:

Originally posted by eric343 Well, IIRC (you'd have to ask Todd to get the authoritative version) the story with Wheatfield is thus: Pete Millet built every Wheatfield amp by hand. I don't believe HeadRoom was ever involved in the production - they just resold them. However, demand for the Wheatfield amps became more than what Pete wanted to handle, so he sold the Wheatfield name, plans, and a bundle of leftover cases/boards/parts to HeadRoom and retired to a tropical island. Danny's planning to use the HA-2 design as a base for the HeadRoom tube amplifier (HeadWarmer?)...

I don't know about the "retired" part of that.He has not returned any emails or phone calls and he sold his entire collection of DIY audio gear(I bought a few other pieces) on ebay.I have been hearing that he has been attempting to raise capital for some sort of new project.I have no idea of what it may be but I have heard this from at least two manufacturers and one sales rep.I hope it works out for him.

As far as the super high end headphone systems go,I am not a convert.the short time I spent with an R10 left me impressed but not blown away.I would never spend the full retail for them and I still don't think they are the best dynamic phones.After owning an Orpheus I won't lie to you and say that it was worth the $10,000.00 I paid for it either.It was the best I heard at some things but not at all of them and I really did love it.I also would not count out a new products in the super high end dynamic headphone arena.There is always someone out there willing to raise the bar.I just got the CES email and in it new products from "over 150 High-End Audio Manufacturers" is promised.When I spoke to the Sennheiser reps at the New York Show they promised new top line headphones in time for CES.We'll see.I will be attending the next show and will take lots of pics.

 

[markl]

doh! unintentional post.

 

[RickG]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vertigo-1 I still think the R10s are the best dynamic headphones there are. It's just a shame that they are only dynamic headphones.

LOL, Vert! You're killin' me. I agree that there's just something about those electrostatics...once you adjust. Hmmm, I think it's just an acquired taste...like oysters on the half-shell or fine Scotch. You either love 'em or you hate 'em.

Quote:

A Gilmore would only mean them getting better I assume.

Well, that's what some people would have you believe...however, I wouldn't be too quick to believe everything you read here or anywhere else. That kind of "assumption" is dangerous...

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl So you "settled" for an electrostatic set-up that limits you to a single very exspensive amp that is not all that well-regarded. With the R10, you had every single hi-end amp at your disposal. With the Stax Omega, you had two less-than-perfect amps available.

"Not all that well regarded" is either maliciously false or very ignorant. A search of Stax Omega II reviews both professional and forum will reveal that it is a very highly regarded headphone.

The Stax SRM-717 and SRM-007t are probably not perfect amplifiers. Nor is any other amplifier. Nor is any other component--even after you've had one upgraded and tuberolled. Certainly, the R10 is not perfect either.

I like the Sony R10 a lot, despite a certain obnoxious vocal owner. I like it better than the Sennheiser HD600 and Etymotic ER-4S, both of which I own. I like it better than many headphones I don't own. Some headphones I personally like better: Grado HP-2, Grado HP-1, Sennheser Orpheus, Stax 404, Stax 007. I do not presume my preferences match everyone's. It would be prudent for others to not assume this about their preferences either.

A quick search on HeadWize produced many reviews and posts about the Sony R10 prior to January 2001, including one by mrbeanyohan on March 17, 2000. I wasn't here then and don't know who was the first to be blamed for hyping this very overpriced headphone. I think it an odd thing to wish credit for. None the less, I often wish other Sony R10 owners were more present on Head-Fi, since the only owner who does post frequently about them has done so much to destroy his credibility.

First sentence edited out. Nothing else has been changed. --DanG

 

[zzz]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Thanks to the Headroom tour, I've heard the Stax Omega. They're fine headphones, but they're no R10s! Give your impressions, you... you.. you... impressions with-holder!!!!

I've heard that Omega on the same tour stop and judging by the Stax SR-404 + KGSS setup I'm listening to right now at this very moment we haven't heard anything. Whatever was wrong with 007 or 007t at the stop, it doesn't matter. But that couldn't be true Omega II.

Now if I only could find the time to finish the Maestrobator, dump a certain tube amp, and get myself 007 and Ikemi...

 

[zzz]

Quote:

Originally posted by eric343 And have you ever tried a Gilmore amp with them? According to Kevin, you haven't heard the Omegas until you've heard them with a Gilmore Time to learn which end of a soldering iron to hold onto Seriously, though, they're that good?

Today I'm pimping.

I have no idea about Omega II (yet

) but 404 with KGSS so far seems to be a wicked combo. Just need to put the enclosure around the latter and, uhm, replace three power transformers with one, swap 1k/50k voltage divider for the DACT, and be relatively satisfied. For now.

Time to try some Cocteau Twins with it.

 

[DanG]

I agree, zzz -- I think that a number of amps were really not working the way they should have been at the WOH tour. It may have been the signal-boosting box that output to all the amps except for the Blockhead, or maybe the lesson learned is you don't want to shake expensive tube equipment up for 9-10,000 miles... the Omega2 sounded fantastic in the spring of 2001 when I first heard it, both at the Stax display (with an Accuphase CDP feeding it) and with the Krell that Headroom had.

 

[eric343]

zzz: Maestrobator? lol!

I assume that's what you call your KGSS?

And glad to hear that you've got a Gilmore amp done... Feel free to bring it over anytime

(I'm currently in the process of doing a PCB for it... very slow going, since I'm trying to make sure it's symmetric)

 

[kelly]

The Maestrobator is carlo's pet name for a maxed out preamp that some of you should be somewhat familiar with.

Keep us posted on your KGSS, Eric.

 

[Hirsch]

I'm not even going to try and untangle the quotables in this thread. These impressions are after months of using the R10.

IMO, the R10 has the potential to be the best dynamic headphone available. Potential, not actuality. If one makes the assumption that a good headphone must be able to sound good plugged into a good amp, the R10 is not even close to the best (HP-1 blows it away with most of my amplifiers). It has great detailing, but lacks low end extension and dynamics with most of my amplifiers. The end result is lack of PRAT. The R10 can sound lifeless and dull. I'd rather listen to the F1.

OK, I've trolled enough. The concept that you should be able to plug a good headphone into a good amp and always hear good sounds is ridiculous (OK, just one more inflammatory statement then). Plug a random headphone into a random amp, and it may work or it may not. Stax has the right idea, as does Orpheus. Keep control of the whole chain, and don't let people form opinions based on mismatched amplification.

The R10 is easily the most demanding headphone I've got. Sugden with R10 is no good if you want bass. ZOTL can come close, but ultimately doesn't drive it well, IMO. Melos is pretty good, but loses a bit of high end air, where the R10 is best. Max was mediocre. Stock HP4 is pretty good, but still not right in the low end. RA-1 is as good as any of the others mentioned here with R10. X-Can is also good. Price seems to be no indicator of which amps will sound best with R10.

One of the more interesting experiments I tried was the Musical Fidelity X10-D. This actually increased the dynamics of the R10, but ultimately added its own coloration, and finally I gave it up. What it did show me was the potential of the R10. If given a signal that it wants, the R10 can produce the dynamics and extension I'm looking for.

Best sound so far is EAR HP4 with Sylvania 6SL7WGT tubes. These increase bass extension and dynamics a lot. There's a problem, though. Any other headphone sounds absolutely lousy with these tubes in the EAR. This seems to me to be the way to go. Forget about using the EAR with other headphones, and tube roll until R10 performance is maximized. Use my other amps with everything else.

On reading back, this post seems overly critical of R10. I won't say it was unintentional. If you gloss over its faults, you can't work on improving its sound. This is something I think is worth doing, or I would have sold it by now. After listening to R10, with decent tubes, any other headphone sounds blurry and indistinct. The R10 is unmatched in its ability to retrieve detail, and present a coherent sonic image. I love the sound of the W2002, but it sounds blurry to me after a session with the R10 (the W2002 is the headphone for the Sugden, by the way. Fantastic combination). Same with HP-1 (although the Melos or ZOTL would be the amp of choice for these). If I just pick either of these headphones up and listen, I love them. If I try and listen to them after a session with the R10, their faults are glaring.

When properly amped, the R10 can be magic. Getting it there is an exercise in frustration and despair, alternating with pure joy in the music when it all comes together. I suspect that ultimately, the R10 may work better driven by a speaker amp, rather than a headphone amp (but haven't found time to hook up the experiment. Yet. The HAP-04 adapter should be able to handle this...). My suspicion is that the R10 draws much more power than its specs indicate. What I hear a lot of the time is often indicative of underpowered speakers, although the R10 is in theory sensitive enough to be driven by anything with a headphone jack.

Is the R10 the best dynamic headphone? Well, yes...but only with the right amp. I suspect Nik had the right idea. The idea of an amp designed solely to meet the demands of the R10 has me salivating...that has the potential to be the best headphone system in the world, bar none.

 

[kelly]

I agree that not every headphone sounds good on every amplifier. While I don't give this relationship quite as much credit as Hirsch does, I have heard particularly good and bad combinations on occassion.

My opinions of the Sony R10 were based on plugging it into the Sugden Headmaster, HeadRoom Max, ASL TwinHead, AudioValve RKV II, PDAC and Corda Blue. Regretably, the EAR and tweaked microZOTL that Hirsch has access to were not present. I believe I've heard enough to have a confident opinion, though. Again, my opinions aren't to be confused with what anyone else may or may not like. That someone could like the R10 more the other headphones I like is wholy believable. But I believe I'm qualified to have my own opinion on it.

 

[eric343]

You know, Hirsch, you make me wonder what the R10 would sound like out of a META42 with stacked EL2008 buffers... One EL2008 can source a full amp of current.