bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
Personally, I don’t mind, but this forum is a great online resource and allowing this kind of nonsense to go on unchecked is a tremendous waste.
Do solid state amplifiers sound the same ?
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castleofargh
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Those things are not mutually exclusive. It usually takes at least 2 for threads to keep spiraling down into absolutism, irrational 5y old denial, and of course aggression.
Here, the title asks for something extreme. Do solid state amp sound the same?
The answers are: yes, except when they don’t. Or, no, except when they do. Which is the same answer.
Any other position if obviously false and serves no purpose.
The only other matter worth discussing are specific cases if they come with evidence! For those, I kept bringing back the conversation to testing methods and when they're not conclusive. We're in the Sound Science section, a sighted impression more so if it won't even bother with proper volume matching(less than 0.1dB) is not conclusive for audibility. We have more than enough research and evidence to make it axiomatic.
If the sound difference is so big that there isn't even a need for blind testing, then bring some measurements to show it's so big that we can make a sure claim of audibility without a listening test.
It's one or the other, and anytime the measurements are questionable for audibility(they often are, due to insufficient data), then the only correct way to support audible difference is to pass a blind test.
It's simple enough and a clear statement that without supporting evidence, a claim of audibility is an empty claim. Empty claims don't need to be disproved, you can just reject them until supporting evidence is provided. "Thank you for your opinion, we'll ignore it until you provide appropriate supporting evidence to convince us it's a valid demonstrated statement. Have a good day".
Explain like you usually do, if only for other members, and if all you get is deflection, red herring, and other straw man arguments, please pretty please, phase out of the conversation. The constant battles to have the last word are always detrimental to your point and to the thread.
I will not be your thought police, I will not moderate people for not singing your tune! People have the right to their opinion, and they even have the right to be wrong. Absurd confidence without evidence, like we often see, isn't something you must destroy at all cost, it is already worth nothing in terms of fact based knowledge.
Knowing @Luckyleo from other threads, he’s very much a "live and let live" type. He didn't come here to create trouble. He just said what is fairly apparent when reading the thread. Of course, @gregorio is the most provoking and rude element(easily calling someone a liar for example, that's sure to always lead to a relaxed discussion...). But in this thread, that's only true because I locked kokaine out of the thread for 2 weeks.
Greg is also a Pitbull, he never let go. I usually understand the motivation(mainly that we do not have to stand for falsehood), but we'd all gain a lot by just slowly phasing out of false arguments, empty claims, and trolls. That much should be obvious to anybody.
Here, the title asks for something extreme. Do solid state amp sound the same?
The answers are: yes, except when they don’t. Or, no, except when they do. Which is the same answer.
Any other position if obviously false and serves no purpose.
The only other matter worth discussing are specific cases if they come with evidence! For those, I kept bringing back the conversation to testing methods and when they're not conclusive. We're in the Sound Science section, a sighted impression more so if it won't even bother with proper volume matching(less than 0.1dB) is not conclusive for audibility. We have more than enough research and evidence to make it axiomatic.
If the sound difference is so big that there isn't even a need for blind testing, then bring some measurements to show it's so big that we can make a sure claim of audibility without a listening test.
It's one or the other, and anytime the measurements are questionable for audibility(they often are, due to insufficient data), then the only correct way to support audible difference is to pass a blind test.
It's simple enough and a clear statement that without supporting evidence, a claim of audibility is an empty claim. Empty claims don't need to be disproved, you can just reject them until supporting evidence is provided. "Thank you for your opinion, we'll ignore it until you provide appropriate supporting evidence to convince us it's a valid demonstrated statement. Have a good day".
Explain like you usually do, if only for other members, and if all you get is deflection, red herring, and other straw man arguments, please pretty please, phase out of the conversation. The constant battles to have the last word are always detrimental to your point and to the thread.
I will not be your thought police, I will not moderate people for not singing your tune! People have the right to their opinion, and they even have the right to be wrong. Absurd confidence without evidence, like we often see, isn't something you must destroy at all cost, it is already worth nothing in terms of fact based knowledge.
Knowing @Luckyleo from other threads, he’s very much a "live and let live" type. He didn't come here to create trouble. He just said what is fairly apparent when reading the thread. Of course, @gregorio is the most provoking and rude element(easily calling someone a liar for example, that's sure to always lead to a relaxed discussion...). But in this thread, that's only true because I locked kokaine out of the thread for 2 weeks.
Greg is also a Pitbull, he never let go. I usually understand the motivation(mainly that we do not have to stand for falsehood), but we'd all gain a lot by just slowly phasing out of false arguments, empty claims, and trolls. That much should be obvious to anybody.
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bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
I reject false arguments, empty claims and trolls. I see no point waiting for them to phase themselves out, especially when they’re endlessly spewing nonsense in post after pointless post. It just gives them more time to do damage to the forum.
The truth doesn't always lie halfway between two opposing opinions. This is the forum for science. Anything that runs counter to that doesn't belong here. They have a bunch of other forums that will welcome their uneducated guesses. They shouldn't be allowed to ram them down our throats when it's blatantly off topic for this forum.
Churchill, not Chamberlain.
The truth doesn't always lie halfway between two opposing opinions. This is the forum for science. Anything that runs counter to that doesn't belong here. They have a bunch of other forums that will welcome their uneducated guesses. They shouldn't be allowed to ram them down our throats when it's blatantly off topic for this forum.
Churchill, not Chamberlain.
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Oh, by the way, currently in the Walkman thread, they are discussing how changing the Android Language changes the sound 
And i am not kidding, they mean it dead serious. They are discussing, in detail, how changing the language of the Android Operating System changes the sound.
Audiophiles live in another world, there is almost nothing to gain starting an argument with such people.
And i am not kidding, they mean it dead serious. They are discussing, in detail, how changing the language of the Android Operating System changes the sound.
Audiophiles live in another world, there is almost nothing to gain starting an argument with such people.
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Conan1974
500+ Head-Fier
OMGOh, by the way, currently in the Walkman thread, they are discussing how changing the Android Language changes the sound
And i am not kidding, they mean it dead serious. They are discussing, in detail, how changing the language of the Android Operating System changes the sound.
Audiophiles live in another world, there is almost nothing to gain starting an argument with such people.
Oh, by the way, currently in the Walkman thread, they are discussing how changing the Android Language changes the sound
And i am not kidding, they mean it dead serious. They are discussing, in detail, how changing the language of the Android Operating System changes the sound.
Audiophiles live in another world, there is almost nothing to gain starting an argument with such people.
Somewhat off topic but very much related.
I just had a read, good grief, I think that group are as bad as any I have seen on HF !
Do other people not have those days when nothing sounds good and they would rather just turn the music off ?
It doesn’t take much in the way of such listening experiences to understand the unreliability of our ears and brain as a comparison tools yet so many people seem to treat what they hear on any given occasion as definitive measured performance. So many seem to have zero awareness of the psychology of audio perception.
If our ears and brains were the finely calibrated tools that so many believe, I would have thrown all my IEM in the garbage today because nothing sounded good and I gave up listening preferring peace and quiet. I know it was just one if those days and tomorrow will be different.
Sure they do, but do they have the right to continue being deliberately wrong? And what about the right of other people not to be lied to or mislead, isn’t that largely the point of science and science discussion forums?
Do I provoke and am I rude? Sure, on occasion but I don’t accept that I’m the “most provoking and rude”! Coming to a science discussion forum and promoting pseudoscience, falsehoods and lies, and not just once but repeatedly, how could one do anything more provoking and rude in a science discussion forum? Also, I do not “easily call someone a liar”! I will relatively easily state someone is posting a falsehood, a fallacy or something that is not true but I need a high level of certainty that they’re knowingly/deliberately posting untruths before I call them a liar.
G
bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
Gregorio isn’t the problem. He contributes valuable information on a daily basis. This forum is lucky to have his participation. The problem is the people who contribute nothing of value over and over and over again. They derail conversation and spread animosity. They are off topic and don’t belong here. Criticism should be directed at them, not Gregorio.
Kokaine should have been thread banned long before this. He was the source of the problem, not us. You can’t call us rude when he came out of the box insulting us and this forum. Disrespect is going to lead to disrespect. You can’t blame the person being attacked for saying ouch.
Kokaine should have been thread banned long before this. He was the source of the problem, not us. You can’t call us rude when he came out of the box insulting us and this forum. Disrespect is going to lead to disrespect. You can’t blame the person being attacked for saying ouch.
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Oh i underestimated the Voodooness. The sound even changes depending on the Apps you have activated/deactivated, no matter if you use them or set them up.
Just the installation/activation of certain apps alone change the sound according to these people.
And people seriously ask, why we do not trust such people when they say "I tested and heard a difference" and that we should measure less and listen more.
Just the installation/activation of certain apps alone change the sound according to these people.
And people seriously ask, why we do not trust such people when they say "I tested and heard a difference" and that we should measure less and listen more.
Ghoostknight
Headphoneus Supremus
i cant speak about apps on android but a tweaked Linux Kernel definitely makes a minor difference
i tested the default debian kernel vs liquorix and xanmod kernel
both tweaked kernels sound better than default, with liquorix a smitch better than xanmod
imo this most likely has todo with the generation of EMI/Noise depending on how you run things
a pretty bloated android phone will just suffer from the same, you wouldnt believe how many of these apps run background tasks and what not, i can really recommend GrapheneOS for pixel phones to "de-google" your phone, it removes so much unnessecary crap, i kind would make a bet that it also improves sound quality over stock OS just by removing a bunch of not needed stuff and concentrating on minimalism
nice and really obvious sideeffect of grapheneOS was how smooth/responsive the pixel 8 feels with it
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bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
The problem is that people who are wrong on such a fundamental basis require us to go all the way back to zero and build an argument from the very beginning. If they continue to argue stuff that should be self evident or basic, it’s like hitting the reset button on the discussion over and over. Nothing of real interest can be discussed because their willful ignorance won’t allow it. They drag the whole conversation down to their level. It’s fine if they listen and make an effort to understand, but around here there is too much effortless ignorance.
As an Senior GNU/Linux System Administrator and Developer with 14+ years of Gentoo experience and building Kernels for different use cases, including RT Kernels for sound studios, i can confirm, that the Linux Kernel outputs Audio bit-perfect.
There is nothing better than bit-perfect, you can't improve perfection, only worsen it.
So if those patched kernels sound different, that means they worsen the sound and do not improve it.
But i do not know any setting in the Linux Kernel that would allow to worsen the sound quality, which one would that be?
castleofargh
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I love your posts. Everything turns out to have a noticeable impact.
With one fairly consistent exception, how to test if something has a noticeable impact. For that one, nothing really matters.
No idea about Linux kernels (other than they exist).
General problem with digital audio is timing issues AKA jitter.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/jitterbuggin
... has been known for quite some time it seems.
As far as I believe to understand:
- digital transmission can indeed be bit-perfect, but
- still result in tiny timing deviations on the receiver side (DAC)
castleofargh
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It's extremely rare to get values that matter to a listener, more so now that modern DACs use their own clock instead of the computer's.
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