[High_Q]

I have read alot of threads about best sounding DAPs, and people typically suggest Sony, Samsung, or Cowon.  What about these DAPs makes them better sounding than ipods?  Are ipods that bad?  People rave over the 5th gen because of the Wolfson, but why are the DACs that are in current generation ipod not considered as good?  

 

[GCX-15]

I sold iPods 3 times and haven't done that with sonys or cowons. The ipods sounded dirty and unbearable. The others sound good. I think the Apple CEOs aren't exactly audiophiles.

 

[mark2410]

basically apple got cheap and changed to cheaper components.  given that most people think ibuds are fine and 128k mp3's are fine too then i cant say i blame apple for realisng that they could skimp, save a fortune and not affect sales.

 

[SOUNDinterpreter]

Don't let some of the other users fool you. Try it out for yourself.

 

[tohni]

I tried it and I returned to an ipod (twice), despite the rather poor sound. The ipod touch made me realize how important a good user interface is. I really don't feel like picking up my P3 very much; the interface is quite a turn-off. So, for me: ipod sounds about average, but makes you want to play around with it; others, like Samsung, sony, etc. sound good/better, but the ui is hardly as inviting.

 

[oyster]

Ipods by no means sound bad at all. My touch3g delivers cleanest signal among sony a726, clip v2, philips go gear. It sounds wider than all of them. In fact when i tried doing an AB comparison with other players touch3g delivered almost equal or better sq than the sony A726; clip isn't in the same league. But finally i dont feel like tapping my feet while listening to the touch as i do with the sony, ........clueless.

 

[Young Spade]

Quote:

Ipods by no means sound bad at all. My touch3g delivers cleanest signal among sony a726, clip v2, philips go gear. It sounds wider than all of them. In fact when i tried doing an AB comparison with other players touch3g delivered almost equal or better sq than the sony A726; clip isn't in the same league. But finally i dont feel like tapping my feet while listening to the touch as i do with the sony, ........clueless.

Some people state that the iPods sound "tinny" in comparison to the sony players that have a fuller bottom end. (I had the 1G Touch/5G Nano and could see where they were coming from switching to the s:flo2). 
 
Haven't heard any Sony players though. That might be the reason for the foot-tapping although I don't know for sure. 

 

[Currawong]

When I took the time to compare different generations of iPod with my iPhone, there was definitely a steady improvement in the sound quality.   There are different grades of electronic components, but without hearing directly from the manufacturers, we have no easy way of knowing either what they used or their intentions.  The DAC used is fairly irrelevant, as the rest of the design has more bearing on the sound ultimately.

 

[plonter]

Quote:

When I took the time to compare different generations of iPod with my iPhone, there was definitely a steady improvement in the sound quality.   There are different grades of electronic components, but without hearing directly from the manufacturers, we have no easy way of knowing either what they used or their intentions.  The DAC used is fairly irrelevant, as the rest of the design has more bearing on the sound ultimately.

don't know about the dac irrelevant..aren't the dac chips supposed to have great impact on the sound?  

 

[shigzeo]

The truth is that most mass produced brands: Sony, Apple, Microsoft, cowon, iRiver, Meizu - all use the same or very similar parts. There isn't a one of them who uses better, faster, or anything parts. 
 
So, if you hear something better, it is just your perception of what you like. Sony for instance is warm and their old players drive earphones pretty well. Newer iPods drive them equally as well, but aren't 'warm' in comparison. There is no 'better', just different. No among this trash.
 
The insistence that Cowon, the company who sell their stuff based on the hot model of the day, are audiophiles, is foolish. They are probably the best non-Japanese DAP maker since they can actually write software (they are a software company). Their players work and that is nice. But they are about as advanced as anything else on the market other than their EQ implementation, which is great.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

don't know about the dac irrelevant..aren't the dac chips supposed to have great impact on the sound?  

 
The output stage in a DAC, being in itself a small amplifier, has the most bearing on the sound.  That's why the iMod became popular, as it bypassed the iPod's output stage, so that high quality capacitors and an external amp with higher quality parts could be used instead.
 
The performance of a DAC chip is directly related to the digital input circuits as well, and the quality of the power supply.  A poor choice of settings on the former can ruin your day.
 

 

[shigzeo]

And most of these players use variants of the same or very similar DAC/SoC's. Some have separate output stages, some do not, but not a one really has the leg up unless you want to measure them under load, when the fall to their faces, or still run cooly driving earphones.
 
It also depends on what you like. Some prefer a player with more distortion in the signal; some prefer less channel separation. In fact, judging by the likes and dislikes on HF, I'd reckon that a lot of people prefer a sound which is farther from the original signal. Not all DAC's have output (amped stages). 
 
The iMod benefitted the iPod mainly by bypassing unneeded stuff: headphone plugin sensors, improper caps, etc., but in those units, the DAC and the output were different stages. When we start to talk about modern players, pretty much everything is SoC and because of that, performs somewhat similarly. There are certain differences, but not really... wildly better sources, just different flavours.

 

[Aevum]

the components in the ipods tend to be very good, thats one of the biggest disapointments i have with them, i hooked up my IE8´s to a classic and a touch, both sounded as if they had little treble and the bass was smudged all over the place compared to my Cowon S9,
 
and on the inside, its basicly the same, a telechips + Wolfson combo, yes, there are better dacs from cirros logic or AKM, and better DSP´s from NEC and TI, but overall, the components of the ipod arent that bad,
the problem comes partly becuase the ipods are poorly built and tuned, i wouldnt trust a foxconn product as far as i can trow it, and the ipods seem sometimes to be crippled on purpose (beyond the DRM and itunes issues), the sound quality is just meh, as if the EQ is badly managed and the components are put togather with no intention of making a decent music player,
 
its a fashion accesory, its designed, built and tuned as one, and if you´re looking for sound quality, an ipod shouldnt be your first choice,
 
thats what i find most unforgivable about ipods, they have the parts, they have the know how, they have the ability, they just dont want to, its a mediocre product for mass consumption designed to daisychain with the rest of the itunes lock in family,

 

[shigzeo]

To you it may be a fashion accessory with 'meh' sound, but it outperforms the Cowon in every conceivable way when driving earphones. The Cowon bass which you praise falls off prettily whereas the iPod touch does not. And treble, especially when running a nice balanced armature earphone, can go really wonky. 
 
I am not sure what you and I hear do differently other than ... preocupation with brands. That could be it. 
 
iTunes I agree with - it sucks. But Cowon too are built for the mass market with hardly any thought to SQ apart from the EQ (which is rubbish on the iPod) and BBE. There is nothing the Cowon does better at a hardware level - nothing. 

 

[MayaTlab]

Quote:

To you it may be a fashion accessory with 'meh' sound, but it outperforms the Cowon in every conceivable way when driving earphones. The Cowon bass which you praise falls off prettily whereas the iPod touch does not. And treble, especially when running a nice balanced armature earphone, can go really wonky. 
 
I am not sure what you and I hear do differently other than ... preocupation with brands. That could be it. 
 
iTunes I agree with - it sucks. But Cowon too are built for the mass market with hardly any thought to SQ apart from the EQ (which is rubbish on the iPod) and BBE. There is nothing the Cowon does better at a hardware level - nothing. 

I absolutely agree with you about the fact that Cowon players aren't built with more dedication to sound quality than iPods as they're also mass market devices, however, they're not to me completely outperformed by a touch 2G. They have drawbacks but also qualities.
 
The main issue to me with the touch 2g was that it was very tinny, lifeless and boring sounding - and that has not much to do with frequency response in my mind. I felt it could not convey the sense of weight I expected behind each instruments, as if it just played a note, and that's it. As an example, the introduction sound on "Homesick" by Parov Stelar is much more weighty, euphonic, playful, meaty (pick the term you prefer ) on the S9 than on the touch. As if it lacked energy, enthousiasm, etc. I also prefer the Cowon's intrument separation and micro details for example (amongst other things).
 
On the other hand I prefer the touch's sense of air and I noticed as you did a better channel separation. Panning effects just work better on my touch.
 
Of course I cannot say anything about internal components, but I don't see why the touch would use less quality materials, or why the Cowon would use better ones. After all they're priced similarly. Could it be rather a question of fine tuning ?