Do other DAPs other than ipods have better components inside?

[shigzeo]

I do wish one of these companies who makes good DAPs: Apple, Cowon, Sansa would spend a little more and make, say a player that could handle the most hard to drive iems, but still have power for headphones.
 
The Fuze is pretty good, but it lacks the energy that the Cowon/Apple group has. It also has more hiss. Those two things aside, ad it would be great. But then, I'd be stupid and wish for a metallic case on the thing, just to make it feel more expensive!

 

[Danneq]

To play the devil's advocate I say that lifeless, flat and boring is what many audiophiles aspire for when it comes to DAP:s. So that the music itself speaks. But I wonder how many audiophiles who actually been inside a recording studio and heard how the music sounds there. It can sound different there than on a good home setup and even more so on a portable DAP.
 
I do not doubt that there are practically the same components in iPods and Cowons. iPod leads the market so Apple doesn't really feel the need to cater to such a small percentage of buyers such as those who actually cares about SQ and want to be able to tailor it themselves. Just look how long it took Apple to put a radio receiver in the iPod compared to other brands who have had that feature for years. What the buyers want is not interesting for Apple. THEY dictate the terms and since the iPod is for DAP:s what JEEP:s are for off road vehicles and Scotch tape is for transparent adhesive tape, i.e, to the general public a digital portable audio player IS an iPod. Therefor the general public will gladly accept any changes that Apple makes and never ask for anything to be added.
 
Cowon tries harder to reach those people. I have to agree with shigzeo that the bass roll off on Cowons is annoying. I have had to tweak the EQ on my S9 quite heavily to stop basses from sounding like something played on a synthesizer and actually sound a bit more like bass. Another thing that I notice on my S9 is that when I use the BBE+ effects the music gets a sort of digital veil. Perhaps that is why some people think Cowon DAP:s have a cold sound?

 

[MayaTlab]

I personally solved the roll off issue with a volume control extension, though I'd like not to be forced to do so as the one I have adds a slight harshness in the trebles region.
 
Also, again, I don't consider the touch "flat" because its frequency response is flatter than the S9 (in fact, if we look at RMAA tests, they're the same except down low), but because I personally feel (though people might think differently), that it lacks substance and heft.
 
Though I don't own them, it's a bit like the threads i've read comparing the HD800 to the T1 : the HD800 would be the iPod (bass etends further, better sense of air, etc.), the S9 the T1 (more weight to the sound, slightly stronger bass impact, etc.), both being rather "neutral".
 
 

 

[shigzeo]

But radio isn't something I have ever seen anyone use - ever. I know that Apple use rubbish iTunes (now even slow on a Mac) and that they seem to not listen, but I don't think that is the case. In terms of actual audiophile stuff, they were the first of the large companies to offer: gapless, line out, and nearly top-to bottom decent-good performance in all of their DAPs. 
 
But Cowon do try... I suppose. They don't really have any competition in Korea though, so you see them everywhere. I think they are more popular here than iPods. If we were talking about video players only, then the touch, but otherwise, Cowon isn't a small name. It also isn't an audiophile company. It is a software company with clever marketing and the good graces to put a good EQ and BBE into its players. otherwise, it is sort of runty. 
 
In some ways, I wish the ill-conceived Chinese player market would sprout wings and take a real leap - into quality design and user interaction. They seem to have good intentions, but always come away with a horrible product. 

 

[Aevum]

the bass rolloff is more of an issue with the wolfson DAC then the actual tunning of the player, aswell as the filtering circuit on the HP out,
i would really like to see more DAP manufacturers drop wolfson and start using products from AKM and higher end cirrus stuff,
 
as for the bass issue between apple and cowon, i found the bass on the ipods very smudged and uncontrolled, its all over the place and lacks detail, basicly fart noise,
it might be a bit rolled off, but its more detailed and refined on cowon players,
 
i like to describe bass as a downwards facing cone, you have a impact point, where the pick touches the cord or the stick touches the drum, and for some, feeling that impact is more important that getting that shockwave that as a friend of mine put it "pushes down his food", bas should have impact, defenition and a dry start point where you feel the instrument react and the sound expand to a force, forming that cone,
 
if the cone is too short, the bass is too shallow, theres no impact, its just like cheap commercial hiphop music, on the other side a thin long cone will give you a weak impact point leading to a weak wave expansion which will leave you with no force and no enjoyment (animic bass)
 
alot of people make the mistake thinking that the bass is the expansion wave and not the impact, thats the higher mid bass hump alot of players and headphones have, i might be a purist or a fanatic, but thats the way i see its, impact, expansion and then disippation,

 

[plonter]

I always thought that wolfson is considered better than cirrus among audiophiles...
not that i have a certain probelm with cirrus,my headroom dac uses it and it sounds fantastic.

 

[Danneq]

Quote:

But radio isn't something I have ever seen anyone use - ever.

If you ain't got it, you ain't gonna use it. The thing I do not like it that Apple makes decisions for the people who buy their products.
Sometime I do use radio, mostly talk radio. Not as much in Japan as in Sweden, though. But it would make some good practice for my Japanese...
 
No one ever uses custom EQ according to Apple, since that is not included in their DAP:s. When they do include that, it will be seen as a revolutionizing break through in DAP technology...

 

[shigzeo]

No, it will be a 'finally'! God, I wish they had a replay-gain enambled EQ now. I'll stop talking about parts because someone up there and I just disagree completely - where I get headache from Cowon and trance, s/he loves the lower resolution. Anyway, no, I've never seen anyone here either, use radio except for one person. They all watch TV or just listen to music. 
 
I am sure there are some people who listen to Radio and it would nice to have, but radio has nothing to do with SQ. I have fuze, Sony, Cowon and never have I llistened to the radio for longer than a few minutes and my mates with similar players never use it. If you do use it, obviously, you won't be going for iPod! A thread like this will only reveal biases.
 
Here's my kick: the iPod sounds no worse than anything else, unless you want a warmer, meltingly smooth sound - go for Sony. If you want good EQ, go for Sony or Cowon. If you want almost perfect linear Frequency response, only Sansa Clip/Fuze will do. iPod is in the middle - a little less grainy than the clip, drives headphones better than modern Sony machines and better than Cowon. It doesn't have a good EQ - it is rubbish.
 
If you need warm and EQ, go for something else. I have 15 DAPs now including the S:Flo and AMP3 Pro 2 and I can tell you honestly that none takes the crown for absolute SQ. Some win in some areas, but they lose in others.

 

[Danneq]

I disagree with you about radio but agree with you on SQ of different DAP:s. I have got 6 now, 5 here in Japan and in Sweden a iRiver H120. Although there is a big Japanese test in my language school tomorrow, I have been spending the last 2 hours comparing my 5 DAP:s I have in Japan and how they sound with my PX100, AKG K420 and PK3, and the head-/earphones can make a bigger difference than the DAP. For example, I have been championing the Kenwood DAP:s, but I cannot get it to work well with my PK3. The treble is too much. The PX100 seem to work best with the Kenwood. It does not have as sharp a treble as the PK3 and is more airy and less "bombastic" than the K420, so more detail can be heard.
My Zen Vision M works best with the K420 while the Zen Touch just like the Kenwood works the best with the PX100. My Sansa View works great with the PK3 and the Cowon S9 works well with all three.
 
So what everyone says is right - the earphones make the biggest difference. By the way, while in Japan, I will probably buy ATH ES7 and also I am interested in Yuin G2A. I have found a review of the G2A that you wrote last year and I am going to read that now. And after that I'll study for the test...

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

To play the devil's advocate I say that lifeless, flat and boring is what many audiophiles aspire for when it comes to DAP:s. So that the music itself speaks. 

Flat and boring is not the music speaking.  A lack of deliberate coloration is not the same as a lack of distortion. 

 
Quote:

I know that Apple use rubbish iTunes (now even slow on a Mac) and that they seem to not listen, but I don't think that is the case. In terms of actual audiophile stuff, they were the first of the large companies to offer: gapless, line out, and nearly top-to bottom decent-good performance in all of their DAPs. 

iTunes hasn't been slow for me on my Mac.  They DO listen, very much so.  Many features are the result of customer feedback, however, they wont put crap into a product. I can tell you, without even having anyone from Apple verify this, why radio was never included in an iPod: Because it would have been crap.  You can't fit a decent aerial into something so small. There was an official radio attachment from Apple, which they never advertised and I think few people even knew about it.  It was crap.  It looks like the original Shuffle, funnily enough.
 
Quote:

the bass rolloff is more of an issue with the wolfson DAC 

Sorry, have to correct you on this, but DA chips don't cause "bass roll-off" at all. That's more likely a result of the amping circuit post-DAC. 

 

[Danneq]

@ Currawong
 
Not being an audiophile but a music lover (this place is big enough for all of us), I like to take cheap shots now and then. 

   Coloration of music is no problem for me, as long as I am the one doing the coloring. However coloring of old black and white movie classics for me as a movie puritan is a strict no no! But I can always change the TV settings and turn off color if I watch such an abomination as a colored black and white classic...
 
About iPod and radio, is it ONLY the Nano which has got radio? How about the Classic and the Touch? On my advice, a friend bought a Sansa Express. He rarely listens to music and  wanted a small device that he could listen to downloaded radio shows on (Swedish national talk radio). He also wanted a radio built into the device. According to him, the radio reception is okay. When he is out in the forest (he's a hunter), he might lose reception, but overall it is fine. If SanDisk could do it with the USB stick sized Sansa Express, why could not Apple do it with bigger DAP:s?
Usually, the antenna is the headphone cable, and in an area where there are not to many obstacles for radio waves, it is not difficult to get good reception.
 
Time to sleep. Oyasumi nasai.

 

[shigzeo]

Hey DanneQ, what are you doing in Japan? Tell me about your work mate and I'll join unless it is teaching.