do i sell all my headphones for one decent pair?
Apr 19, 2012 at 4:55 PM Post #31 of 43
 
I'm sorry but most of the kilo-buck flagships released in the last few years measure like hell for the prices people expect for them (some of them measure "okay" (if you want examples, I'm going to point a big finger at Ultrasone and extend it back to the Ed7, and we can go on from there)), except for the HD 800. The HD 800 strikes me as "Sennheiser's K1000" - they did something amazing and put their weight behind it. I think because of the general "meh" feeling about continually refreshing the HD 580 every few years. That said, it doesn't stand alone in the world for having good transient response, a relatively flat FR below 1k, and being comfortable - it's just what's popular today. It isn't the second-coming. The Pro4 argument is a bit contentious too - they were never the top-tier. In the late 1960s and 1970s the ESP was king (both in price and in many reviewers' hearts), STAX and Toshiba ran behind them (very closely), and it went on from there. By the 1980s, Sony, Sennheiser, and STAX (As well as various orthos) were really the game to beat; not to mention a little gadget called the HP-1000. There's really not been tons of advancement from a technical perspective; every once in a while someone does something clever or unique (like the HD 800), but most of the very expensive stuff on the market is just dolled up to command a higher SRP. 
 
Really I don't care how people organize or sort their cans - it's like arguing over whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable. It doesn't change tomatoes being tasty. So if you like the Pro4, or the K701, or the HD800, that's your own choice. But it does get annoying when the next step is taken and people start putting other people down for not having spent as much money ("you're not a true audiophile you haven't spent at least a thousand bucks on a set of cans"). That's not the spirit of audiophilia or hi-fi, but it is the spirit of being a jerk. 
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In my early days of canning, the Koss Pro 4A was considered to be at or near the top rung.  The point is that the sonic and market advances change and raise the bar over time with regard to what is an "audiophile" can and what is "just" mid-fi.
 
In the current environment, I consider the Senn HD 600 & 650 (both former flagships) along with the Denon D7000 (current flagship) to be on the cusp of audiophile and mid-fi, and the HE-500 to be of audiophile class--and perhaps the lowest price point for entry onto that turf.

 
 
 
Apr 19, 2012 at 5:00 PM Post #32 of 43
 
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In my early days of canning, the Koss Pro 4A was considered to be at or near the top rung.  The point is that the sonic and market advances change and raise the bar over time with regard to what is an "audiophile" can and what is "just" mid-fi.
 
In the current environment, I consider the Senn HD 600 & 650 (both former flagships) along with the Denon D7000 (current flagship) to be on the cusp of audiophile and mid-fi, and the HE-500 to be of audiophile class--and perhaps the lowest price point for entry onto that turf.

 
There's some sense to what you say, however I still don't fully buy it.  "High Fidelity" means just that.  A device which reproduces a recording with a high level of accuracy and detail faithful to either the recording or the live sound that was recorded (the latter via coloration.)  By your logic, vintage 60's & 70's amplifiers no longer count as hi-fi because state of the art amplifier technology has exceeded the performance capabilities that were available at the time.   Yet such equipment is one of the core audiophile staples still sought, and at some very high prices.
 
To say that top performing headphones achieve even higher fidelity now than the top performing headphones that were previously available is a fair statement.  However the level of hair splitting diminishing returns that exist at that level is also a fair fact to point out.  All the devices we're talking about are high fidelity, they all reproduce the recording with a high level of accuracy and faithful to the source.  Just because more detailed speakers exist doesn't mean they are not high fidelity.  These are reference, and beyond reference headphones, and most of which are still commonly used for the mixing, tracking and mastering of the recordings everyone is trying to eek more detail out of with their Stax. There's nothing wrong with eeking out every last detail available, so long as one doesn't start considering only the crazy high-level ghastly priced semi-prototype equipment to be the definition of "hi-fi" and anything not at early-adopter premiums for a semi-prototype design to be "mid-fi."  The colloquial "summit-fi" exists for a reason.  It's the place where people willing to buy that last tiny bit of performance at any cost sit.  The notion that the existence of summit-fi now replaces hi-fi, and everything else is just mid-fi is an injustice to audiophiles seeing reliable information about what they're hearing and where they should look for. 
 
To pretend otherwise is a shady attempt at classifying one group as "real" audiophiles almost exclusively based on the value of their equipment with complete disregard to the the relatively small amount of difference in actual fidelity between the price brackets.  Either that or it demonstrates a level of audiophile-world entrenchment that precludes one from observing genuine mid-fi brackets such as HD4xx, and a complete unawareness of genuine lowfi such as run of the mill Sony headphones and stock DAP earbuds.
 
Hi-fi is not a system of tiering out only the top level equipment.  It's a classification of a large bracket of equipment all dedicated to detailed faithful sound reproduction.  The ~1k price bracket is effectively a new price bracket entirely over and above what has been considered hi-fi for a long long time. Consider HD650 released at $500. Adding a new tier above traditional hi-fi in terms of price and performance is just that, a new tier.  It doesn't undermine the fact that what was hi-fi is still hi-fi.
 
I think you hit the nail on the head though.  The separation of "audiophile" is not the same as the separation of "hi-fi."  Though even that term is a bit inaccurate.  Even Sennheiser, home of the $1000 and $1500 HD700, HD800, still calls the 650 "audiophile."   And HD600 is still listed as having been designed for classical recording engineers.  If that's not hi-fi, despite the existence of the improved HD800, what is?
 
I don't mean to pick exclusively on you with this, you're one of many many people that have used this term in an inaccurate context.  You just got the wrath of the day
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Apr 19, 2012 at 5:38 PM Post #34 of 43
I look at the market and observe what the headphone companies and informed customers say and how they stratify the product.  As my best cans are the Senn HD 600, Denon D 7000 and AKG Q 701, I am not an audiophile snob--certainly not in Head-Fi land.  I also agree that the best value for quality recorded music can be found in what I call the "mid-fi" class/price range.
 
When it comes down to the meaning of "hi-fi", when I was growing up, it was mono 33 1/3 LP's (much better than the old 78's) played in giant and beautiful Fisher (and other brand) audio cabinets.  See one such later example:
 
http://meuble.radio.free.fr/stereo_console/
 
What was hi-fi in the 50's, did not qualify as such by the end of the 60's...and on it goes.
 
"Audiophile" cans (turntables, amps, etc.) simply captures what the hi-enders buy and what is (reasonably) marketed to them--at any particular point in time.  In the old days of GM--they are the Cadillac market, while most everyone else is the Chevy, Pontiac, Olds and Buick classes/segments.  Even in those days, every Cadillac was not necessarily better than every downline model and make.
 
Apr 19, 2012 at 10:37 PM Post #35 of 43
Wow, there's some really good discussion happening in this thread, and nobody's erupted into a temper yet in many pages. I shall bookmark this for future reference when my brain tries to get me to buy yet another TOTL can.
 
Apr 19, 2012 at 10:44 PM Post #36 of 43
 
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Wow, there's some really good discussion happening in this thread, and nobody's erupted into a temper yet in many pages. I shall bookmark this for future reference when my brain tries to get me to buy yet another TOTL can.

 

I know what you mean... when I read the last couple of pages my HD650 started to sound even better...
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Apr 20, 2012 at 2:56 PM Post #37 of 43
 
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I look at the market and observe what the headphone companies and informed customers say and how they stratify the product.  As my best cans are the Senn HD 600, Denon D 7000 and AKG Q 701, I am not an audiophile snob--certainly not in Head-Fi land.  I also agree that the best value for quality recorded music can be found in what I call the "mid-fi" class/price range.
 
When it comes down to the meaning of "hi-fi", when I was growing up, it was mono 33 1/3 LP's (much better than the old 78's) played in giant and beautiful Fisher (and other brand) audio cabinets.  See one such later example:
 
http://meuble.radio.free.fr/stereo_console/
 
What was hi-fi in the 50's, did not qualify as such by the end of the 60's...and on it goes.
 
"Audiophile" cans (turntables, amps, etc.) simply captures what the hi-enders buy and what is (reasonably) marketed to them--at any particular point in time.  In the old days of GM--they are the Cadillac market, while most everyone else is the Chevy, Pontiac, Olds and Buick classes/segments.  Even in those days, every Cadillac was not necessarily better than every downline model and make.

 
I understand your viewpoint, but I think there are some fundamental flaws with the analysis.  The the manufacturers have indeed not stratified these products into what some call "mid-fi."  To use the Sennheiser example, HD650 was their $500 hi-fi reference headphone almost 10 years ago, and HD650 is still their $500 hi-fi reference headphone today.  Even if they were to come out with an HD675 at $500 and bump HD650 to $350 permanantly, would HD650 no longer be hi-fi because a slightly re-tuned improved model exists?  No.  HD600 did not stop being hi-fi because a slightly pricier retuned and improved HD650 was released.  Years ago, there was no $1k headphone market.  $250-500 represented "top of the line", and $10k represented "summit-fi"....an ultra high-end performance-at-any-cost luxury tier for those with vast cash to spend on such things, and a desire for not just high-fidelity, but ultimate-fidelity at any cost.  It's like trading in your performance-tuned racing stock car for a performance tuned F1 Ferrari.  Neither class would be accidentally mistaken for a Volvo by anyone.
 
I think where you and others are seeing the erosion of hi-fi into mid-fi where new higher-fi is released is inaccurate.   What you're seeing is the introduction of a new tier of semi-affordable summit-fi.  Instead of targeting the $10k market for a few hundred celebrities, politicians, and executives (Stax, Orpheus, etc.) they realigned and started building a more down to earth ultra-top-of-the-line performance-at-any-cost tier for a much more affordable cost.   Notice the $10k Orpheus is gone, and the $1500 (cheap by comparison) HD800 now represents Senn's top of the line.   Beyer joined the fray with T1, T5p.  AKG bailed out of the summit world, settling on Q701 as their top of the line, but supposedly will release a new flagship at some point.  Audeze exists only in the summit world with a $1k entry fee, HiFiMan....they're the wild card.  Traditionally they're summit-only, but the HE-400 and HE-300 shows they're branching out, or lower the price of summit and are the first to move summit to hi. 
 
There are only a smattering of headphones in that elite "summit-fi" world that you're mistaking for hi-fi and moving hi-fi to mid-fi for.  LCD-2, LCD-3, HD800, HD700 (ugh, do we really have to count that monstrosity out of place release?), T1, T5p, K1000 (discontinued), HE-6, HE-500, HE-400 (personal bias, but having heard it, I can't really exclude it from summit, the performance is extraordinary at any price, let alone a price lower than HD650 currently.)  And.... what else?  Stax, of course. a few Audio Technicas, a few Ultrasones, a Sony or two, a Grado, Fisher, .  Lets say 18-20 headphones that really fiit that category other than the true exotic stuff.   By that definition of hi-fi we have all of 20 cans to pick from for hi-fi, and everything else is mid-fi?  No.
 
Those are all amazing cans, though they're all also amazingly overpriced far beyond their true value.  These are luxury toys for every ounce of performance no matter the price.  But, no mistake, they all represent a new tier (NEW) more affordable tier of summit-fi, the ultra-luxury side of high-fidelity.  It is a price class that previously did not exist.  They do not negate the remainder of the vast array of high fidelity headphones available.
 
Where there is merit to your view that I can somewhat agree with is that at some point in time, it will come to be that the market will be flooded, at all price points, by ring drivers, tesla coils, planars, etc, and it will mark a turning point where all price ranges are replaced with significantly greater performance than before at the same price points, and dynamics will probably be reduced to only the low end entry level equipment.  At that point, yes, perhaps hi-fi will be forever changed, and it will be hard to call the older tech an equal.  But that day has not yet come in the past 10 years, no manufacturer (except maybe HiFiMan if they play their cards right) seems poised to set that stage, or even interested in doing so.  HD700 was the golden opportunity to start moving the tech downward, and the result was either a failure to affordably do so, or a lack of desire to do so, or both.  As-is, the level of fidelity available at any given price point is the same level as has been available.  The basic dynamic driver technology hasn't changed since the 1950s, and vintage hi-fi still sounds fantastic, as many folks here will attest.  If it was hi-fi 5, 10, and in many cases 20 years ago, it's still high-fidelity.  It is no less true to the source today than it was then, and nothing superior has replaced it at, or anywhere near, its price bracket despite a new "preview of the future" bracket being invented. 
 
Worse, the new techs are often still very polarizing.  For every fan of HD800 you find, you'll find two that either ran screaming back to HD650 or like HD800 only for certain uses but wouldn't use it as their every day headphone.   Most critics and owners seem to identify HE-6 and HE-500 as technologically superior to HE-400, yet most of the professional critics seem to prefer HE-400 for their daily listening, and more than one owner of both on the boards wouldn't give up either, but has a slight preference toward HE-400.  The current trend in "ultimate detail and treble sharpness" that seems to represent that summit at the moment seem to not be to everyone's tastes.  Many of these people are avid audiophiles, most of which own very exotic signal chains or studio equipemnt.  They have no interest in "mid-fi".  HD-650 is still popular for those with exotic multi-$k signal chains that were built soly for 650.  Is it mid-fi?
 
The tech has caught up to a level where there's a lot of options of very high quality to pick from.  While some certainly represent a higher backet, the level of performance difference relative to price is often subtle.  Worthwhile for some, but not significant enough to declare a complete hi-fi revolution.  
 
When HD680 comes out for $500, and HD599 for $400 sporting ring drivers and HD800-like performance, then there's room for discussion. Maybe in another 10 years, at the current rate of progression.
 
 
 
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I know what you mean... when I read the last couple of pages my HD650 started to sound even better...
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LOL, HD650, K70x are still great headphones, no question!   I like what the new tech can do, and I've grown attached to my planars, but to say 650 and 70x are only medium fidelity is just an unpalpable stretch.  I think the fidelity part is pretty much reaching the natural limits of what can ever be squeezed out of a speaker in the "new summit" and is probably part of why no company is in a rush to move it down to mainstream hi-fi.  What needs to be worked on and improved now is more realistic staging, but that is so unfortunately recording dependent.  HD800 is probably the undisputed winner so far, but it's a long, long, long way from mainstream hi-fi.
 
Apr 20, 2012 at 3:18 PM Post #38 of 43
"Hi-Fi" to me--and how it has been used since the 1950's--means quality reproduction of recorded or broadcast music and sound.  It does not mean a certain level or line drawn between products at or near the top of a line or type of audio product.  That's where "mid-fi" and "audiophile" market segments come into play--at least as I use them.  Below "mid-fi", there is "entry level" (includes the Koss Porta Pro) and "step up" (includes CAL!).  "Mid-fi" means (at least to me) the middle ground where you leave the better mass market cans and before you hit the serious and very highly priced audiophile only market.
 
Under this traditional definition of "Hi-Fi" a number of cans priced under $100 qualify as such.  Examples: CAL!, Koss DJPro 100, Superlux HD668B and AKG K 240 studio.  Many costing much more, particularly [but not necessarily exclusively] those which grossly distort and/or amp up bass are not "Hi-Fi".
 
When it comes to cans like the Denon D5000 & D7000, Senn HD 600 & HD 650, I see professional writers and reviewers struggle about where to place them--unless they use categories such as "entry level audiophile", "mid-level audiophile" and "top level/state of the art audiophile".  Come to think of it, they sometimes have trouble even then, deciding between entry and mid.
 
Apr 20, 2012 at 5:12 PM Post #39 of 43
I went from a pair of Grado SR60 to the HD800 in a few years.  There was a bunch of other headphones in between.  Some of which I still own and listen to.  I think everyone who is thinking about getting a flagship headphone, should at least take a listen.  Just to hear the differences and if it is worth it to them.
 
Apr 20, 2012 at 6:02 PM Post #40 of 43
 
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You're in Melbourne - so get down to Addicted To Audio, talk to George, and audition the LCD2, LCD3, T1, HD800 for yourself.  He has Stax there as well.  That way, you can tell with your ears whether its worth it for you to change.
 
(http://www.addictedtoaudio.com.au/Audiophile-High-End)
 

 
This is what you should do. I'd also suggest you take your own phones with you so you can do side-by-side comparisons
 
Apr 24, 2012 at 8:44 PM Post #42 of 43
 
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thanks for contributing to what turned into a great thread 
i have decided to keep my ultrasones and sell the rest.
t1 are in the mail:)

 
From my standpoint, at least, you'll have no regrets. I almost never listen to my mid-fi stuff anymore (though I kept it around for review comparisons, portability, and a reserve source of income just in case), sticking to my T5p, HD650, and PS1000 almost exclusively now.
 
Apr 24, 2012 at 11:37 PM Post #43 of 43
The HD800 is so light and it's phenomenal with the Black Dragon V2 Audio Cable w/o the analixus mod. The LCD-2 isn't bad - I got used to my LCD-2 Rev 2 w/ Q-Audio
 
I recommend buying the HD800 for daily use, the LCD-2 for rap/rock, and a good closed headphone for what else?
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