[DaveBSC]

Quote:

 
The other problem is that buying the high end cables creates a placebo effect of its own and introduces yet another phenomenon that probably has a name, of which I am unaware.  I think of it as reverse buyers remorse, a sort of cognitive dissonance that goes something like this:  Only stupid people spend big money on stuff that doesn't work. => I'm not stupid. ==> I spent big money on this ==> It works.

Riddle me this then sir. Let's say I spend exactly $500 on cables from two different manufacturers. Same type of cable, same price, just two different brands. The both look equally pretty, and are both backed by marketing fluff and positive reviews. I think one sounds great, and the other does not. Please explain how the placebo effect is working there. All factors are the same, the only variable is brand and design. If all cables sound the same, $500 cable 1 MUST sound the same as the $5 Monoprice equivalent, and $500 cable 2 MUST sound the same as the two other cables. If I'm comparing just one $500 cable to a Monoprice cable and I decide the $500 cable sounds better, fine you can write that off as placebo. You'd be wrong, but you'd have an argument.
 
How does placebo work when one expensive cable beats another though? Shouldn't they sound the same? How am I tricking myself if they are both expensive? I'm still waiting for a cogent argument on this.
 

 

[sailorman]

 
Quote:

Funny, Denon does exactly that. The cable supplied with the D7000 is significantly better than the one supplied with the D2000. Now why would Denon spend even a penny more on the D7000 cable if there was no difference in the sound between the two?
 

What do you mean by "significantly better"?  Better contacts? soldering? covering? microphonics? aesthetics? Those are a few reasons, other than sound, they'd spend more on the D7000 cable.

 

[Willakan]

To sell it to audiophiles. AKG's flagship have ultra-high purity copper cables - somehow I doubt that's because the engineers thought it would make it sound better.
 
Cables are very cheap in parts and allow you to put a "Uber Cable of Win" as one of the product's selling points. "Improved" cables is just the sort of thing reviewers actually pick out in their reviews and praise for "attention to detail."

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

==========================================
It disgusts me how some people here are just set on expressing their beliefs without first-hand experience. It's one thing to deny hearing a difference cables, but a whole nother to vehemently presume, and shoot down anyone who says otherwise.
I really do feel sorry for your ears, but just because YOU cannot hear it does not mean you should go around trying to persuade others that they cannot hear it either.
Just because things are not quantifiably measureable does not mean it's impossible; I don't know what happened in your life to be so one-dimensional. Just because the bitterness of coffee is not mathematically measureable on a graph, does not mean every cup of coffee in the world will be equally bitter.
You're pathetic, and you know who you are if you're reading this.

I agree. We have to get away from the nonsense spouted in denying no one can hear a difference between cables. People clearly can. Cable deabtes are continually ruined by such and they avoid the real issue of what causes some to hear a difference and others not to.
 

 

[Pudu]

The end of Cable Wars

Those who know the truth about cable improvements, when asked just give your opinion that they make a difference. Then go back to listening to your music with the confident knowledge that you're right and enjoying the best possible sound.

and

Those who know the truth about cable improvements, when asked just give your opinion that there are better ways to spend your cash. Then go back to listening to your music with the confident knowledge that you're right and enjoying the best possible sound.

 

[sailorman]

 
Quote:

Riddle me this then sir. Let's say I spend exactly $500 on cables from two different manufacturers. Same type of cable, same price, just two different brands. The both look equally pretty, and are both backed by marketing fluff and positive reviews. I think one sounds great, and the other does not. Please explain how the placebo effect is working there. All factors are the same, the only variable is brand and design. If all cables sound the same, $500 cable 1 MUST sound the same as the $5 Monoprice equivalent, and $500 cable 2 MUST sound the same as the two other cables. If I'm comparing just one $500 cable to a Monoprice cable and I decide the $500 cable sounds better, fine you can write that off as placebo. You'd be wrong, but you'd have an argument.
 
How does placebo work when one expensive cable beats another though? Shouldn't they sound the same? How am I tricking myself if they are both expensive? I'm still waiting for a cogent argument on this.
 

Because there are many other factors that could determine which cable you think is best, at any given moment.  If you could consistently identify the same cable, among two identical looking cables with similar levels of quality, in a double blind test, you'd have something.  I've never heard of that being done.
 
I'm willing to conceded the possibility of perceivable differences between a $5 and $500 cable. A $5 cable might have poor connections, poor fitting connectors or other gross QC deficiencies. Other properties, such as aesthetics and covering, that don't necessarily affect the sound may be far better on the $500 cable.  But, I have a harder time believing that there are perceptible SQ differences between, for example, a $100 cable and a $500 cable. BTW, analog cables may be a different case.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Riddle me this then sir. Let's say I spend exactly $500 on cables from two different manufacturers. Same type of cable, same price, just two different brands. The both look equally pretty, and are both backed by marketing fluff and positive reviews. I think one sounds great, and the other does not. Please explain how the placebo effect is working there. All factors are the same, the only variable is brand and design. If all cables sound the same, $500 cable 1 MUST sound the same as the $5 Monoprice equivalent, and $500 cable 2 MUST sound the same as the two other cables. If I'm comparing just one $500 cable to a Monoprice cable and I decide the $500 cable sounds better, fine you can write that off as placebo. You'd be wrong, but you'd have an argument.
 
How does placebo work when one expensive cable beats another though? Shouldn't they sound the same? How am I tricking myself if they are both expensive? I'm still waiting for a cogent argument on this.
 

I do not think placebo is the only cause and it may not even be the cause, it may be something else instead. But I do think the cause is with the listener and not inherantly in the cable as we have ruled out how cables are made, what they are made with and the electrical properties of cables being the cause.
 

 

[Girls Generation]

Unsubscribing. Too many people here commenting on cables being all placebo when they themselves have not tried a high end cable, nor have sat down long enough to really hear the difference. There's no doubt it's not going to be a sudden change and a wow factor, but unless your ears are underprivileged, if you sit for a while listening to music, then switch back, there's a possibility that you'll notice the difference. However, you people choose not to, because everything must be quantifiable, no?
Give a listen to some nice headphone cables like a TWag v2 or DHC RS Silver, and then come back and comment. Otherwise, you've absolutely no right to cantankerously project your opinions on to others, attemping to clearly define a "right" and "wrong."
Not everything in the world is measureable on paper, but that does not mean it's not possible. Read my coffee analogy.
I'm out. I gave up all hope when an obnoxious Mod started saying stuff like, "CLIPPING? I'M SORRY, BUT THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE." All I could say to that was, herp derp.

 

[sailorman]

 
Quote:

I do not think placebo is the only cause and it may not even be the cause, it may be something else instead. But I do think the cause is with the listener and not inherantly in the cable as we have ruled out how cables are made, what they are made with and the electrical properties of cables being the cause.
 

In order for the placebo effect to happen, the subject has to know something about at least one of the cables.  AFAIK, there have been no double blind tests done that would rule out the placebo effect and show that someone, anyone, can distinguish between 2 cables, both properly functional but with widely varying price.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Girls Generation please do not let the trolls drive you away. Those of us who gathered evidence know people can and do hear a difference between cables and differences can be heard between two cheap ones, not just cheap and expensive.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

 
In order for the placebo effect to happen, the subject has to know something about at least one of the cables.  AFAIK, there have been no double blind tests done that would rule out the placebo effect and show that someone, anyone, can distinguish between 2 cables, both properly functional but with widely varying price.

The results between different types of listening tests are very consistent. Beyond that such discussion should take place eleswhere.
 

 

[Antony6555]

Cables are a matter of faith, or they are treated that way by "believers." If you want to know, just try it for yourself since someone's else personal, subjective experience is just that and won't necessarily determine your experience
 
This thread has already been discussed a thousand plus times, and since it's not in sound science we cannot even go into the evidence. So it's really a waste of space here...

 

[sailorman]

 
Quote:

Unsubscribing. Too many people here commenting on cables being all placebo when they themselves have not tried a high end cable, nor have sat down long enough to really hear the difference. There's no doubt it's not going to be a sudden change and a wow factor, but unless your ears are underprivileged, if you sit for a while listening to music, then switch back, there's a possibility that you'll notice the difference. However, you people choose not to, because everything must be quantifiable, no?
Give a listen to some nice headphone cables like a TWag v2 or DHC RS Silver, and then come back and comment. Otherwise, you've absolutely no right to cantankerously project your opinions on to others, attemping to clearly define a "right" and "wrong."
Not everything in the world is measureable on paper, but that does not mean it's not possible. Read my coffee analogy.
I'm out. I gave up all hope when an obnoxious Mod started saying stuff like, "CLIPPING? I'M SORRY, BUT THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE." All I could say to that was, herp derp.

Sorry, your coffee analogy doesn't hold up.  There are indeed quantifiable properties in coffee that are known to affect the taste. These can be measured objectively.  It is the taste itself that is subjective.  Whether one person finds a certain property desirable or not is a different issue, but they can be measured.  What is the analog to cables?  Putting aside the issue of whether a particular property is good or bad, what  properties of different cables can be measured and shown to be more or less prevalent in high-end cables? 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

 
Because there are many other factors that could determine which cable you think is best, at any given moment.  If you could consistently identify the same cable, among two identical looking cables with similar levels of quality

 
And those factors are what? Again, still waiting for a real argument on this. The only thing ABX tests prove is that those tests don't work. If you demand an ABX test to prove a difference, and you accept its conclusions, than you MUST ACCEPT that there is no difference between any amplifier or CD player. There is also no difference between analog and digital recordings, and no difference between 16/44 and 24/96. ABX tests have "proven" those things all to be true. If you do not accept those conclusions, than you are being disingenuous.
 
Uncle Erik buys into that idea whole hog, that everything sounds like everything else. He's wrong, but at least he's being consistent.
 
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

 
And those factors are what? Again, still waiting for a real argument on this. The only thing ABX tests prove is that those tests don't work. If you demand an ABX test to prove a difference, and you accept its conclusions, than you MUST ACCEPT that there is no difference between any amplifier or CD player. There is also no difference between analog and digital recordings, and no difference between 16/44 and 24/96. ABX tests have "proven" those things all to be true. If you do not accept those conclusions, than you are being disingenuous.
 
Uncle Erik buys into that idea whole hog, that everything sounds like everything else. He's wrong, but at least he's being consistent. 
 

That is only true if all such testing finds no difference, but it does not as there are positive tests out there. You need to do some reading up on the subject. But as Antony6555 points out, we cannot discuss that further here.