Do headphones sound better when the drivers are further away from the ears?

[bigshot]

Right. Speakers have physical space plus the secondary depth cues, and headphones have just the secondary depth cues. With speakers, the physical distance defines the depth of the soundstage itself, and the synthetic secondary cues make it sound like the distance extends back beyond the speakers. The most vivid aspect is the physical space and the acoustics of the room. That’s what makes the sound “bloom” (I don’t know the technical term for that, but it’s the effect of the sound filling the room and wrapping around you.)

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

As usual you all are speaking dogmatically about how headphones stage, and you’re literally contradicting yourselves. You don’t get to say that HRTF affects everyone subjectively and individually and then say everything is projected as a straight line though the head. Maybe that’s true for your HRTF and choice of headphones, but it’s certainly not true for me and many others. Different headphones absolutely stage very differently from one another.

 

[bigshot]

HRTF is hard wired into your corporeal body. It doesn’t matter what speakers you listen to. I don’t know why that would need to be mentioned with speakers, only with synthesized ones.

The source of the sound with headphones is right over the left and right ear. The phantom center lies halfway between that.

I wasn’t talking about synthetic speaker processing. If you want to talk about that, it’s a separate conversation.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

HRTF is hard wired into your corporeal body. It doesn’t matter what speakers you listen to. I don’t know why that would need to be mentioned with speakers, only with synthesized ones.

The source of the sound with headphones is right over the left and right ear. The phantom center lies halfway between that.

I wasn’t talking about synthetic speaker processing. If you want to talk about that, it’s a separate conversation.

I was talking about headphones, not speakers. This thread is about headphones and driver distance from the ears and its effect on soundstage perception.

 

[bigshot]

I was talking about speakers and physical soundstage. The distance from listening position to transducer is measured in feet. Distances in centimeters don’t create any of the same effect.

 

[castleofargh]

When binaural hearing is studied with headphones, the task is referred to as lateralization. For sounds presented externally to the listener. such as via a loudspeaker, the task is referred to as localization.

This is an example of a fairly typical wording in studies on psychoacoustic. The distinction is clear enough.

But it is also true that different people get different experiences with headphones. Over the years I have discussed seriously enough with a handfull who, when talking about front row or second row presentation with headphones or IEMs, actually meant that they were experiencing that type of presentation and distance.
The best I can do is a smaller version only when I lie down in the dark, close my eyes without moving at all, and actively try to imagine the instruments forward and further away.
But someone else might achieve that effortlessly, maybe without even thinking about it. Again, some members described those big forward images and when asked if it was BS audiophile exaggeration, they insisted that they had that experience with headphones and IEMs. I have no reason to suspect they were lying to me.

Given the literature on psychoacoustic, the majority of people seem to experience what bigshot describes.
So I declare that you’re both right.

 

[71 dB]

I was talking about speakers and physical soundstage. The distance from listening position to transducer is measured in feet. Distances in centimeters don’t create any of the same effect.

We have talked about this many times before: Ears don't have measuring sticks to measure how far the sound sources are. The perception of distance comes from the hearing analysing the spatial cues in the sound. Spatial cues are different for speakers closer to the listener than they are when the speakers are at greater distance. The major difference is the loudness difference of the direct sound and the reflections/reverberation in the room. If speakers 10 feet away are moved closer to the listener halving the distance to only 5 feet, the direct sound becomes 6 dB louder for the listener while the early reflection become only a little louder and the room reverberation stays equally loud as before, because we still have a pair of speakers radiating sound energy at the same level as before. Spatial hearing analyses the delays of early reflection, the amount of reverberation etc. to pinpoint where the sound sources must be in order to generate the secondary spatial cues perceived.

That's why at least in theory we can simulate the same with headphones assuming we can simulate the spatial cues accurately enough. The reason why headphones struggle with soundstage compared to speakers is because with speakers the secondary spatial cues gets generated in reality and are by default 100 % correct while simulating them for a given listener with individual HRTF is quite difficult.

You saying there can't be soundstage with headphones is kind of if you said there can't be photorealistic CGI or 3D movies for eyes, because eyes see real objects.

 

[71 dB]

This is an example of a fairly typical wording in studies on psychoacoustic. The distinction is clear enough.

But it is also true that different people get different experiences with headphones. Over the years I have discussed seriously enough with a handfull who, when talking about front row or second row presentation with headphones or IEMs, actually meant that they were experiencing that type of presentation and distance.
The best I can do is a smaller version only when I lie down in the dark, close my eyes without moving at all, and actively try to imagine the instruments forward and further away.
But someone else might achieve that effortlessly, maybe without even thinking about it. Again, some members described those big forward images and when asked if it was BS audiophile exaggeration, they insisted that they had that experience with headphones and IEMs. I have no reason to suspect they were lying to me.

Given the literature on psychoacoustic, the majority of people seem to experience what bigshot describes.
So I declare that you’re both right.

This "people getting different experiences with headphones" thing was a big surprise for me when coming to this forum. When I came here I was in the belief that of course people experience headphone sound the same way. We all have structurally similar ears and our spatial hearing is based on the same principles of ILD, ITD, ISD etc. That's why I assumed the way I personally experience crossfeed applies to everyone. It took me a couple of years to realize my assumption was incorrect. What I know about crossfeed applies only to myself and maybe some other individuals who experience headphone spatiality the same way I do. This was pretty devastating for me and frankly I don't have a clue what my purpose in life is. I have failed in life so many times. I even feel deceived. What I learned in the University didn't give me crucial knowledge. I thought I have the knowledge I need, but I didn't know everything. I don't know anymore what my knowledge and understanding is good for. At least I know how to make headphone spatiality better for myself, so there is that.

 

[71 dB]

I was taking about headphones, not speakers. This thread is about headphones and driver distance from the ears and its effect on soundstage perception.

Pinna shapes the frequency response of sound at (very) high frequencies depending on the direction of sound. The distance of the driver from the ears should effect this pinna effect a little.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

This "people getting different experiences with headphones" thing was a big surprise for me when coming to this forum. When I came here I was in the belief that of course people experience headphone sound the same way. We all have structurally similar ears and our spatial hearing is based on the same principles of ILD, ITD, ISD etc. That's why I assumed the way I personally experience crossfeed applies to everyone. It took me a couple of years to realize my assumption was incorrect. What I know about crossfeed applies only to myself and maybe some other individuals who experience headphone spatiality the same way I do. This was pretty devastating for me and frankly I don't have a clue what my purpose in life is. I have failed in life so many times. I even feel deceived. What I learned in the University didn't give me crucial knowledge. I thought I have the knowledge I need, but I didn't know everything. I don't know anymore what my knowledge and understanding is good for. At least I know how to make headphone spatiality better for myself, so there is that.

Your purpose in life is far greater and more important than your contributions to the effects of crossfeed!

 

[bigshot]

I suspect that people who claim to get “speaker-like” soundstage with headphones don’t really know what a speaker system sounds like. Most of them when asked say that they don’t have speakers, only headphones.

 

[bigshot]

Pinna shapes the frequency response of sound at (very) high frequencies depending on the direction of sound. The distance of the driver from the ears should effect this pinna effect a little.

A couple of centimeters isn’t going to create the impression of distance. It might sound different, but it’s not going to move sound in front of the listener to any degree. Likewise, a larger ear cup isn’t going to create reflections like a room. It’s just a matter of scale.

The idea is to close your eyes and hear sound arrayed out left to right at a distance in front of you like hearing a performance in a club or theater from a seat in the audience. In order to achieve that, you need a distance between channels and between the listener to the speakers that is large enough to create that illusion. If the distance is too small, or if there is no distance at all, you’ll get some sort of difference in the sound, but it won’t sound like true soundstage. A grain of sand doesn’t behave like a tiny boulder, and one drop of water isn’t an ocean.

 

[castleofargh]

It’s hard to know. Some studies show that when it comes to distance and direction, we massively use visual cues over sound cues if any is available(and I’m guessing imagination can also play a big role). For distance with sound alone I’ve seen 2 different papers showing on average, people overestimate the distance for sources under about 1 meter and underestimate the distance for sound sources at more than 1 meter. As for horizontal direction, we’re within a few degrees by ear alone, with some directions being more accurate than others. But with contradicting visual cues, some people have been found to deviate by as much as 55° trusting the visual information(principle similar to the ventriloquist effect).

This "people getting different experiences with headphones" thing was a big surprise for me when coming to this forum. When I came here I was in the belief that of course people experience headphone sound the same way.

I feel like we all have to go through that to start learning about the real world and ourselves in it. Initially I suspect we all tend to have that center of the universe mentality, where all our ideas and feelings are the truth by vertue of not even thinking to question our experience.
I doubt we can find many people on the forum who were never in those shoes. Be glad that you managed to get past your inner reality for one more thing. I see that as a win.
I’ve seen my fair share of headfiers who are stuck into the cave of their own making, who have never once admitted to being wrong on the forum(and possibly outside), and have never even accepted the idea of such a possibility.
IRL you probably have met someone like that, like someone who always blames tools or other people for anything they struggle with. Or someone who gets mad at you anytime it looks like you’re contradicting their views or the righteousness of their actions.
I know very nice, very interesting people who are like that(among a majority of dick heads with the same behavior). They have found a way to reject cognitive dissonance forever and of course their reality is a total fantasy. What else could it be.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

A couple of centimeters isn’t going to create the impression of distance. It might sound different, but it’s not going to move sound in front of the listener to any degree. Likewise, a larger ear cup isn’t going to create reflections like a room. It’s just a matter of scale.

The idea is to close your eyes and hear sound arrayed out left to right at a distance in front of you like hearing a performance in a club or theater from a seat in the audience. In order to achieve that, you need a distance between channels and between the listener to the speakers that is large enough to create that illusion. If the distance is too small, or if there is no distance at all, you’ll get some sort of difference in the sound, but it won’t sound like true soundstage. A grain of sand doesn’t behave like a tiny boulder, and one drop of water isn’t an ocean.

You keep trying to make sweeping,
objective claims about an entirely subjective situation. Just stop. With every post you make you simply further discredit yourself.

Stick to speakers. You are repeatedly wrong and show your ignorance about headphones and headphone design. The frequency response, driver distance from the ear, angle of drivers, driver size and technology choice, housing size and damping design, and of course HRTF, ALL effect the perceived soundstage!

 

[bigshot]

I’m really not talking about secondary depth cues or visual influence. Those things are basically the same for speakers as they are for headphones. I’m talking about the perception of physical soundstage- the way we can detect if a sound is an inch in front of us, or twenty feet away… and the effect of room reflections on how we perceive space. Theoretically, you can synthesize all that using something like a Smyth Realiser, but it requires a lot of calibration and signal processing. Headphones on their own can’t come close to reproducing soundstage the way speakers do. That should be self evident. Soundstage is created in the mix and is generally monitored on speakers. It isn’t a stretch to say that headphones don’t reproduce the fully intended illusion of soundstage. Headphones and speakers have their own drawbacks and advantages. Soundstage is one of the advantages of speakers, just as isolation is one of the advantages of headphones.

Headphones can sound open or closed. The sound can be tight around the head or bloom outwards. But that isn’t soundstage, and calling it that is like calling jumping in the air flying.