[blumenco]

Hi all,

I have been an avid headphone-o-phile since high school. Visiting Wayne in the cayman islands, amongst other various headphone pilgrimadges brought me to finally get into ATH, high end sennheiser, and etymotics (my personal system now).

During college, I got into Single driver loudspeakers as a natural progression from single driver headphones through an apprenticeship with Cain and Cain (cain-cain.com). Terry Cain's sad and untimely death lead me to build speakers under my own name for a year (blumenstein-ultra-fi.com). The Cain and Cain name still lives on well under my friend Jason Flannary's Lovecraft Designs brand.

Recently, I have begun an apprenticeship (no doubt a long one) at Feastrex.com, a small, but up and coming full range driver outfit from Japan. They draw upon an an incredible amount of development (generations) refining the full range driver. Though expensive, these truely are Orpheus like in presentation, and even fairly superior in some respects.

Having asked this question before in a different context, I got some replies like "single driver speakers are impossible..." All I can say is that unless you have heard a really good design, hold your tongue. Certain single drivers are truely extended...coherent, have good dispersion characteristics, and do in fact have room shaking bass. Every speaker (and headphone) design has tradeoffs.

What I am wondering, is that do headphone o philes tend towards single driver loudspeakers? Is there overlap? I tend to notice most headphones folks using two way nearfields (Which I also like), but anyways, just curious.

Thanks,

Clark
-Feastrex

 

[webbie64]

For me it's electrostatics, regardless of headphones or speakers.

Only exceptions IEMs (one single driver, one dual driver) and PC speakers (using a sub to supplement the flat panels). And car speakers, of course.

 

[blumenco]

There are some killer electrostat designs out there. (most of them older...).

the issue for me with them is to get the bass impact from a point source electrostat.

 

[webbie64]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blumenco /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are some killer electrostat designs out there. (most of them older...). the issue for me with them is to get the bass impact from a point source electrostat.

Agreed.

Headphones - Apart from the obvious Stax Omega II (not the recent revised version but the original with the renowned Stax 'fart' issue) you could also find the Koss 950s, when paired with a good tube amp, to help in this area.

Speakers - no solution I've seen/heard yet

 

[jrosenth]

I've always loved both headphones and single-driver speakers.

Always found them to compliment one another very nicely and single-driver/full-range speakers to share many characteristics I love about headphone (coherency, immediacy, naturalness, etc.).

There are always lots of threads in the speakers/accessories sections here asking for what cheap speakers someone should buy.

I generally recommend a DIY fostex or a few folks doing it cheap and a T-amp or other class d-amp, which ends up being in most folks price ranges for some computer speakers or Paradigm Atom - type preferences.

Generally, this is a total minority position and few folks really go that route. I just can't figure it out, especially if folks are after good sound per dollar, or all the characteritics of headphones.

I've actually started a thread on this once upon a time - got all the usually answers (full ranger drivers sounds awful - need to use some sort of cross over, no real bass, etc.). After explaining you could use a BSC or shaping network (I use a Behringer and do the shaping & room correction in the digital domain then go straight to a Panny), there was a hesitating acceptance but I don't know if anyone really ends up going that route.

It's particularly interesting as particularly in the cheapo ranges I think those arguments wear exceptionally thin and that the single driver stuff slaughters everything far and wide (um, computer speakers or some paradigms, epos or even X series stuff).

For example, I had some voight pipe cabinets made for some fostex 127's I modded (cross between the abbeys and the mini 103 fostex based guys Terry had), got a used Behringer to do the BSC and room correction - total was under $500.

I do understand the attraction to electrostatics though - think that most folks could also be well served by some cheap maggies - but for most in this demographic those may be a bit tougher than some full-range/single driver set ups.

 

[Jacques]

There is a simplicity that makes a single driver loudspeaker interesting. In the end, it comes down to what you want to experience. There is a lot more to music than the bass impact or high frequency response. Many audiophiles when they go to a classical concert for a first will wonder where the highs and the bass are.

For me planars have provided great musical experience. I wish I could find and try a good single driver system and this is something I am keeping an eye on. The SR-404 and the K-501 have been as enjoyable as the panels. So there is definitely potential to that approach.

 

[Uncle Erik]

I agree with the OP about singledrivers. They're really special when done correctly. And I have no idea why they're not obsessed over in the forums here. You'd think they'd be a natural pairing with Head-Fi'ers.

I do love other speakers, though. I'm crazy about a pair of ProAc 2.5 clones and my ribbons make me feel all funny inside.

 

[blumenco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many audiophiles when they go to a classical concert for a first will wonder where the highs and the bass are.

The honesty here almost makes me cry.

 

[donunus]

hahahaha thats funny but true. Isn't this the original purpose of audiophiles though? Recreating the live experience in their homes? Everyone should realize that recreating live orchestral music or real instruments is different from trying to recreate the artificial soundstage of amplified instrument recordings like rock/ jazz fusion, etc... This is why we need at least 2 headphones for these different dedicated purposes. Now every once in a while a product comes out that can do it all, that is rare and it usually becomes a jack of all trades master of none.

 

[G-man]

i have always like dual drivers, purely for the fact that the sound is different. keeps things interesting.

 

[Postal_Blue]

I have a very cheap pair of Single drivers (zigmahornets), and while they have their faults, I enjoy them for much of the same reasons I enjoy headphones. I would love to hear some of the more elaborate horn designs.

There was some single driver talk in the DIY forums about 2-3 months ago, when a couple members undertook builds

 

[boomana]

I don't have much experience with a variety of speakers, but I love my Cain & Cain Abbys along with the Bailey sub (really needed the sub to fill out the bottom). I actually use my headphone amp as a preamp to an F1.

I don't really make a connection to headphone listening and speaker listening, but the Abbys's sq is just to my taste. I've also been impressed with the Omegas I've heard, so who knows. The few single-driver set-ups I've heard all work for me.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif hahahaha thats funny but true. Isn't this the original purpose of audiophiles though? Recreating the live experience in their homes? Everyone should realize that recreating live orchestral music or real instruments is different from trying to recreate the artificial soundstage of amplified instrument recordings like rock/ jazz fusion, etc... This is why we need at least 2 headphones for these different dedicated purposes. Now every once in a while a product comes out that can do it all, that is rare and it usually becomes a jack of all trades master of none.

Yep, audiophiles used to record all the time. That's why almost every reel-to-reel deck has recording heads. Used to be common practice. Sad that the practice has fallen away, especially with much more portable high-quality digital decks and microphones. A lot of audiophiles used to build their own gear, too. The hobby would benefit if more people got back to these roots.

And I totally agree about the difference between headphones for acoustic music and those for electronically amplified and processed music. Thank the almighty for the K-501 and Grados.

 

[MD1032]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blumenco /img/forum/go_quote.gif The honesty here almost makes me cry.

Eh, I don't know where he got that statement from. To me, it seems like there's so much detail and fullness of sound in real life that speakers and headphones just simply can't compete with for the same reasons that a real pipe organ will blow an electronic one out of the water with. It's not even a matter of turning up the bass or the treble on any sound system.

I hate to say it, but when you get out there in the musical world, you realize that everything you've ever heard from any headphone has been at best a rudimentary replication of that sound. Take St. Mary the Virgin's Aeolian-Skinner in NYC. I recently played that organ. I heard a recording of it and thought it was nothing special. It didn't sound very full or loud. Sure enough, in real life, I immediately realized that I had my volume control set at a mere fraction of the decibel level the organ reaches. The contra bombardes were almost shaking me off the organ bench, the low 32' flutes made my innards rattle to the point where you get nauceous, and full organ, even for a second, literally left my ears ringing. It's not just for organs. When I first heard the Philadelphia Orchestra live, I was blown away by how much presence and impact the double basses had compared to what I heard in my headphones. You can have 15 subwoofers and not duplicate that same exact PLUCK in real life that just grabs you out of your seat by your ears.

As for single-driver designs, I've never heard a good one, so I can't comment, but my experience is that the more drivers a speaker system has, the better it sounds. I've especially found that three-way systems sound much, much better than two-way because they fill in the midrange to the point where it's coherent and detailed, and not compromised between two sources.

 

[Jacques]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD1032 /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...To me, it seems like there's so much detail and fullness of sound in real life that speakers and headphones just simply can't compete with for the same reasons that a real pipe organ will blow an electronic one out of the water with. It's not even a matter of turning up the bass or the treble on any sound system.

Yes, no system, speakers or headphones can even come close to the 32' organ. It is also thru for just about any acoustic instrument. I am generally interested in the midrange of a live orchestra. It is so rich and smooth and it is where most of the performance is.

That said, I would rather have a coherent midrange from a single driver and let go some bass and highs than the other way. Most good headphones are single drivers. This is why I think that the idea of single driver speakers system should at least be considered. It is too bad that there are no dealers around where I live.

I doubt that such a system would appeal to someone in amplified music but I have to admit that I have virtually no reference in such music.