Do Grados really have (relatively) non-existant soundstage??
Nov 16, 2005 at 8:20 PM Post #46 of 63
DarthNut once wrote, in his magnum opus of a review (the 30+ page Omega II jobby), that there was a disctinction between headstage and soundstage. Since then I have tried to proliferate this distinction on the boards because it is a very important aspect of headphones and headphone listening.

Headstage: that space wherein the musicians occupy, situated within one's head in most cases.

Soundstage: the ability of the headphone to project sound outside of one's head. Example: That wonderful experience of turning mid-tune because of something on the disc and realizing such after turning in haste.

Grados do have a very narrow headstage. It is nearly 2D like. R10's have the best headstage I have ever heard. The placement of the musicians is incredibly life-like. I have not heard the K1000's but from all that I read, even they can't do it as well as the R10's. Go figure?!?

Grados have the widest soundstage I have ever heard, that is, they are able to project sound the furthest. That does not mean that it sounds as if the guitarist is a foot outside my head on the left and the bassist a foot outside on the right etc. For this, within the realm of the "headstage" the K1000's would win, though not preserving the perfect 3D nature of the stage as the R10's, so we have wide X axis here, but not as long a Z axis as the R10's etc. (Headstage only).

Grados tend to stick the musicians inside the head and close together, yet! if there is an outdoor concert or one in say Notre Dame in Paris, the sounds seem to float on forever until they hit the perimeters of the sound field. Only the Omega II's in my experience come close to the top Grados, here I believe it is a result of the elongated chambres.

Some hate the compressed headstage. I don't mind it because I grew up playing in bands and I was used to hearing my fellow musicians close to me. So on-stage or front-row, it's all good. The soundstaging though, WOW, second to none in my opinion.
 
Nov 16, 2005 at 8:41 PM Post #47 of 63
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayreonaut
There is a Foobar2000 plugin that does it.


If you're interested, its right here

It has a slider to adjust channel separation from 0% (mono) through 100% (normal) up to 400% (Whatever that is)
 
Nov 16, 2005 at 9:38 PM Post #48 of 63
You aren't going to here a whole lot of soundstage pecking away on your computer, trying to do a head-fi post with your cans clamped to your head and your concentration concerned with a turn of phrase. Soundstage wonderfully reveals itself with real unfettered listening. Try it.
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Nov 17, 2005 at 4:21 PM Post #49 of 63
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth
Headstage: that space wherein the musicians occupy, situated within one's head in most cases.

Soundstage: the ability of the headphone to project sound outside of one's head. Example: That wonderful experience of turning mid-tune because of something on the disc and realizing such after turning in haste.



I'm reasonably sure I disagree with this distinction. Sound projected outside of one's head is useless unless it is part of the "headstage", as defined above. I prefer to simply use soundstage to talk about a three-dimensional reconstruction of sound sources. The better the system, the wider the stage (including the ability to extend outside of the head, or even appear to be wider than the headphones).

I won't bore everyone by repeating what I've already posted about balancing the RS-1, but all the "rules" of Grado soundstaging get thrown out when you do this. You get some serious height and depth added to the mix.
 
Nov 17, 2005 at 4:47 PM Post #50 of 63
Its very hard for me to distinguish "headstage" and "soundstage" as separate entities. The most analgous meanings in my parlence to headstage would be imaging, i.e. geographical positioning of instruments and their juxtiposition among them. This is somewhat different from "separation" which refers to the ability to distinguish the various instruments from te high-level melody.

From countless reviews, soundstage to most refers to a headphones ability to project a sense of space in which the performance was recorded.

IMO, they can't be mutually exclusive. In order to have an accurate soundstage, you need correct headstage (imaging) and vice-a-versa.

Now that I've listened to every major headphone system on the planet (Orpheus, R10, Qualia, Stax, etc.), I feel the RS-1's weakest attribute is its inability to reproduce an accurate soundstage. I think this is very evident with any piece of orchestral or symphonic classical piece. Due to the Grado house sound and the forward presentation it entails I think the RS-1's by design are handicapped in this department. Their sense of intimacy is what attracts members of Team Grado.

RS-1's really shine with recordings that have small arrangements, i.e. rock, vocals, etc. Their fuzz and intimacy are quite evident with these pieces.
 
Nov 17, 2005 at 4:59 PM Post #51 of 63
So far it seems that it's just largely subjective. I've heard HD650's with my same source and amp, and I personally prefer my HF-1's soundstage placement. I do agree with the "front row" comment; I feel more like the singer is bent down from the stage singing to me in the front row more than standing in the middle of the band while playing. Once again, that's probably just me.
 
Nov 17, 2005 at 5:47 PM Post #52 of 63
It's all simulation anyway and it's like debating which potato chips have the best artificial flavor.
 
Nov 17, 2005 at 6:54 PM Post #53 of 63
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayreonaut
If you're interested, its right here

It has a slider to adjust channel separation from 0% (mono) through 100% (normal) up to 400% (Whatever that is)



before I download this-can you explain to me what it is?
 
Nov 17, 2005 at 7:02 PM Post #54 of 63
Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle
Duh. This would hold true for pretty much any headphone. What's your point?
Yeah, like the K1000 you just mentioned.



Bottom line is that Grados suck in soundstage.
 
Nov 17, 2005 at 11:16 PM Post #57 of 63
Quote:

Originally Posted by EdipisReks
the HP1000s don't. they image very well and have decent depth and width.



Nor to the PS-1's or RS-1's.
 
Nov 17, 2005 at 11:27 PM Post #58 of 63
Quote:

Originally Posted by DJGeorgeT
Bottom line is that Grados suck in soundstage.


They suck in soundstage? I thought soundstage came from the recording? Or do headphones pull it in like a vacuum cleaner from a secondary source? Analysis Spock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth
Nor to the PS-1's or RS-1's.


Nor do the 325i's.
 
Nov 18, 2005 at 12:22 AM Post #59 of 63
Quote:

Originally Posted by kwitel
before I download this-can you explain to me what it is?


It's a DSP component for Foobar2000.

Foobar2000 is a highly modifiable freeware audio player. Uers have written all kinds of DSPs for it. (digital signal processors) This is one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwitel
it would be nice if you could just raise/lower soundstage like volume...


This lets you raise and lower CROSSFEED like volume. And it does not affect TONE like many of the analog crossfeeds do.

At the 0% setting the channel separation is reduced to nothing and you get the same signal out of both sides. At 90% you have 10% crossfeed and it narrows the soundstage a bit like the analog crossfeed circuits do. 100% is unaltered stereo. Above 100% I think it subtracts a little of each channel from the other to artificially widen the soundstage.

I hope that helps. Heres a link to a guide for Foobar2000.
 
Nov 18, 2005 at 12:29 AM Post #60 of 63
Here is the explanation. Imaging is distinct from headstage which is distinct from soundstage:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Nut
INTRODUCING:
THE HEADSTAGE


I am listening to a section of Beethoven’s Pastoral
symphony (andante movement), and I think there
are 20 musicians packed inside my head. Listening
to music via headphones can be a paradoxical
experience. I know that 20 people cannot fit into
my head, empty as I sometimes swear it may be
during my stupider moments. Yet the steadfast
illusion right now is that there are 20 musicians in
my head.


There are some recordings that make me go “wow,
what a huge soundstage”. But here’s the rub: I
happen to have a wall-sized mirror on one side of
my listening chair. When I look into the mirror, the
illusion of the huge soundstage is stripped away
and revealed for what it truly is: a cramp head-
hugging soundfield. In the mirror I can “see” all
those sonic images sticking to my scalp like a bad
hair-do. I look away from the mirror, close my
eyes, lose all sense of scaled reference to the real
world, re-invest my concentration into the music,
and the huge soundstage re-appears. But when I
open my eyes and look again at the reflection of
my headphones in the mirror, I once again “see”
the scalp-bound soundfield.


I call this soundfield that stubbornly refuses to take
leave of my head the headstage.


The difference between soundstage and head-
stage is illusion and reality. The soundstage is the
(desired) illusion; the headstage the (unfortunate)
reality.


Another way of stating the difference between
headstage and soundstage: headstage is about
the localization of sonic images in relation to your
head. Let’s say you are listening to a piece of
music that contains 3 sonic images. One image is
located at the right temple of your forehead,
another image is skimming the top centre of your
scalp, and yet another image is located an inch
beyond the left earcup. The arena within which all
these sonic images are located is called the
headstage. And it is a tiny arena—I estimate this
arena on the Omega II to be maybe 8” wide and 5”
tall (it could be bigger on your headphone—I’ve
always said that the Omega II has a small
headstage—but more on this later). The sound-
stage is something else altogether. The sound-
stage is the qualitative perception of ambient cues
captured in the recorded music. The soundstage
can be very big, as big as a cathedral nave, if that
was what was indeed captured in the recording.


When listening to headphones we can choose
between perceiving the soundstage or perceiving
the headstage. Your mental concentration can
swing the perception one way or the other. During
moments when we are utterly absorbed in the
recording, all you have to do is to tell yourself to
“snap out of it”, and chances are that you will “lose
sight” of the majestic soundstage. What’s so
majestic when you choose to become aware that
the whole violin section of a grand and majestic
orchestra is only 4 inches wide across your
forehead?


When listening via headphones, most of us choose
to be aware of the soundstage instead of the
headstage, in an effort to distract ourselves from
noticing the cramp head-hugging soundfield or in
an effort to lose oneself in the recording—the latter
is valid and is after all the whole point of listening
to music. But distracting yourself from scrutinizing
the head-hugging soundfield will not make you a
more discerning listener. You have to understand
the head-hugging headstage first, cramp as it may
be, before you understand the soundstage.



_______________________________________
HEADSTAGE: ANALOGY OF A PHOTOGRAPH


What is the headstage, really? First I will put
forward an analogy, then I will offer a working
definition of the term “headstage”.


Analogy: imagine a 5-inch wide photograph
depicting a sprawling mountain scene going on for
miles and miles. A photograph is nothing more
than colour pigments distributed on a flat piece of
paper. There is no mountain on the piece of paper,
nor inside nor behind the piece of paper. The
mountain is in the eye of the beholder.
Furthermore, a photograph does not need to be
mountain-sized in order to depict a mountain.
Additionally, a statement that the mountain in the
photograph is 10 miles away does not contradict
the fact that the colour pigments representing the
mountain are lying flat on a piece of paper.


The two-dimensional headstage is analogous to
the two-dimensional photograph. If a small photo
can depict a large scenery, why can’t a small
headstage portray a large soundstage? And if a
flat photo can depict distance, why can’t the two-
dimensional headstage depict depth?


This is the definition of the term “headstage”:
the headstage is a flat plane, small in size,
positioned vertically such that the plane
intersects both ears, and all sonic images are
chained to the two-dimensionality of this plane.


None of my past articles has offered such a
concise definition of “headstage”.


Please take time to digest this: all sonic images
are chained to the two-dimensionality of the
headstage, much the same way the mountain is
chained to the two-dimensionality of the
photograph.


Why do I say that the headstage is two-
dimensional? In order to be aware that this head-
hugging soundfield is actually two-dimensional,
you have to stop yourself from being swept away
by the soundstage illusion of the recording, and
start to focus on the location of the images in
relation to your head. Your headscape offers
several landmarks that you can reference the
location of the images against. Landmarks on your
head include the front centre of your forehead
between the eyebrows, the front centre of your
forehead where your third eye would be if you
were a Buddha, front top of your forehead where
your hairline is if you haven’t started balding yet,
the left and right temples of your forehead, and the
left and right ears on your head. It may seem
unnatural at first, but try not to focus on the
soundstage cues inherent in the recording, but
instead focus on the location of images in relation
to your headscape.


Then you will realize the truth that all the images
can be located more or less on a flat vertical plane.
Average playback systems will create flatter sonic
images that resemble stickers from a child’s sticker
book. Sonic images are like flat stickers that you
can “paste” on the flat vertical headstage. Superior
playback systems create more rounded, full-bodied
images, in which case the headstage resembles
more an upright rectangular tupperware* within
which all sonic images are contained. (*tupperware
= plastic food container, just in case there’s a
cultural gap here.) But whether it is a flat plane or
an upright tupperware, the point here is that whilst
there is depth in the recording, there is no depth to
the localization of the images.)


I have read accounts of a headphone’s soundfield
as being “a clothesline stretched from one ear to
the other”, or another account describing it as
being “three blobs in the head”. My senses tell me
that both descriptions of the headstage shape are
inaccurate.


I simply don’t perceive the images being located as
if they were strung along a straight line going from
ear to ear, like so many beads on a string. There is
such a thing as height, so the one-dimensional
description of the headstage is something that
contradicts my personal experience. A straight line
going from ear to ear is actually located very deep
in my skull (a straight line going from ear-to-ear is
three inches below the top of my scalp) and the
only time I noticed images located three inches
below the top of my scalp is when I listened to
mono recordings. Stereo recordings create not just
left-to-right differentiation, but also create a sudden
upward expansion of the headstage, i.e., the
creation of headstage height. (If you have a
Stereo-Mono toggle switch on your amp you will
notice that toggling to Mono will collapse the
headstage into a tight-fisted ball deep inside your
head, while toggling to Stereo will not only provide
left-to-right differentiation but also expand the
headstage upwards.) So the description of a
headstage as a thin clothesline stretching from ear
to ear is something I take issue with.


As for the description of the headstage as being
“three blobs in the head”—on my systems (past
and present) I have not heard the three blobs
effect. Intellectually I understand what HeadRoom
is trying to say—it’s just that the three blobs effect
simply doesn’t square with what I have
experienced so far. I suspect that HeadRoom
offered such a stark model (three blobs is a very
stark model) because a more subtle explanation of
the crossfeed mechanism may potentially be lost
on laymen. In an advertisement, you need a clear,
strong message; and the three-blobbed headstage
is as clear a message as you can get: “you don’t
want the three blobs—you want our crossfeed”.
From my experience, the headstage is a smooth
continuum from left to right; and there is no distinct
separation into three separate blobs, unless I was
playing a very old stereo recording—as old or older
than myself. (This is not to be construed as a
comment on the crossfeed mechanism. I am
commenting on the accuracy of the description of
the headstage as being a three-blobbed affair.)


I am prepared to accept a description of the
headstage shape as being a spherical soundfield,
but it is a squashed sphere, more like an oblong
rugby ball: the left-to-right dimension is larger than
the front-to-back dimension. A person who insists
that the headstage soundfield is a perfect sphere
must either get his ears checked or tell us all what
super-duper headphones he is using that can
create not only left-to-right localization but front-to-
back localization as well. (Binaural recordings that
matches one’s personal HRTFs and various 3D-
processing methods lie outside the scope of this
write-up. This write-up is restricted to stereo
headphones playing stereo recordings.)


The description that most resembles my
experience of the headstage shape is any one of
the following: that it is either a flat vertical plane or
an upright rectangular tupperware or an oblong-
shaped ball or a thick fat discus placed vertically.
Whatever shape you choose to describe the
headstage as, the main thing is that this shape has
a larger left-to-right dimension and a very flat front-
to-back dimension. (But if I were to be absolutely
accurate about it, I’d say that the headstage is a
rainbow-shaped arch springing from ear to ear with
the apex of the rainbow at the top centre of the
forehead. All images are located in a smooth
continuum along this rainbow. This rainbow has a
larger left-to-right dimension and a very flat front-
to-back dimension.)


Most headphones create headstages that intersect
the ears. (Meaning to say that the vertical plane or
the oblong ball or the upright tupperware or the
vertical discus or the rainbow intersects the ears.)



Of course he goes on much further in his review, focusing on depth cues and specifically with the Omega II's. One can read his thoughts in his review.
 

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