Morph201
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<delete>
Do folks hate to spend on sources?
- Thread starter greggf
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pageman99
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Duggeh, you make excellent points, but methinks they apply to your situation specifically and don't generalize well.
Your headphones are great, but much more demanding than what most folks are willing to spend.
Bottom line is: what is the budget? Then what sound you you like? Then what upgrade path is best considering original compromises made?
This obviously leave many possibilities. For myself I tried many many headphones trying to buy used so as not to lose much when reselling those that I didn't prefer. This way I learned the house sound of many manufacturers. Yes, this is only a generalization (house sound), but I think a fair one.
I spent double the average headphone price on an amp. The logic being, if I don't have a decent amp, I couldn't possibly make rational decisions about what sound I liked, as any phone would sound lousy.
Lastly, I upgraded my source.
That's when I found out that source is hugely important.
Now the difficulty becomes how does one try many expensive sources w/o taking a financial beating? Well it's hard, and that's probably why folks spend more on headphones, and amps first, then source last.
How many of you have followed this path?
Your headphones are great, but much more demanding than what most folks are willing to spend.
Bottom line is: what is the budget? Then what sound you you like? Then what upgrade path is best considering original compromises made?
This obviously leave many possibilities. For myself I tried many many headphones trying to buy used so as not to lose much when reselling those that I didn't prefer. This way I learned the house sound of many manufacturers. Yes, this is only a generalization (house sound), but I think a fair one.
I spent double the average headphone price on an amp. The logic being, if I don't have a decent amp, I couldn't possibly make rational decisions about what sound I liked, as any phone would sound lousy.
Lastly, I upgraded my source.
That's when I found out that source is hugely important.
Now the difficulty becomes how does one try many expensive sources w/o taking a financial beating? Well it's hard, and that's probably why folks spend more on headphones, and amps first, then source last.
How many of you have followed this path?
PFKMan23
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Not me. I find that even out of mid-high fi level headphones (K701, 650, 580, etc..), to get the most out of that you really do need to have comparatively hifi level stuff. IN essence, what you can find at the, for example, $300 pricepoint in headphones really doesn't translate over to amps or to sources. To see what it can really do you do need to spend a fair bit more. And yes I that if you are spending all that money on the transducer, but not on the other components, then you are undercutting that transducer.
For me I've found that the source does make a fair bit of difference, even out of the same recordings, so I do belive that one should spend a fair bit on sources if they want to maximize their equipment.
For me I've found that the source does make a fair bit of difference, even out of the same recordings, so I do belive that one should spend a fair bit on sources if they want to maximize their equipment.
boomana
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Quote:
X2
I think people like buying new amps and headphones because they're easier to play around with, you can hear different things every time, and can buy and sell without much financial loss or second thoughts. It's the fun part of the hobby. A source is an investment that, for most people, remains pretty stable. Once you get headphones or speakers that are capable of revealing nuances, a good source is essential and satisfying, but not as much fun.
Though I hadn't really thought about it before reading this thread, aside from my R10s, my main source would be the most expensive component in my system had I bought it new. Come to think of it, even in my portable rig, my source (imod) is the most expensive (though I'm toying with the idea of custom iems and that'll blow that example out the window). With CDPs, I simply listened to quite a few, and chose the best I could buy in my budget. There are others I've heard that I liked better for different things (Esoteric SA10 is better at SACD but equal in Redbook), and others I've heard, loved, and could never afford, but what's the point of having great headphones if you're not giving them what they need to shine?
I bought good headphones first, but as I got better and better ones, I quickly realized, by listening to others' set-ups, that mine didn't sound as good as those who had better sources. It's pretty obvious once you've heard the difference.
Example: I don't particularly like the new Denon AH-D5000s, but in a pre-meet hang out session, FL style, in my hotel room, I checked them out using my gear and my CDs, but instead of the Exemplar Denon 2900 (my main source), I was using a Lector 0.6T, which is a really musical, sweet sounding CDP that I like a lot, especially considering the price is half that of the modded Denon. I commented that the headphones sounded congested. Thrice, who owns them, listened for a minute, and said, "It's the source." We switched to the Exemplar, and dangit, the things opened up. It wasn't my imagination, and I can say that because I still don't like them, but they did sound better. Source, at a certain level, does makes a difference, and imo, my headphones deserve the best I can give them.
| Originally Posted by PFKMan23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not me. I find that even out of mid-high fi level headphones (K701, 650, 580, etc..), to get the most out of that you really do need to have comparatively hifi level stuff. IN essence, what you can find at the, for example, $300 pricepoint in headphones really doesn't translate over to amps or to sources. To see what it can really do you do need to spend a fair bit more. And yes I that if you are spending all that money on the transducer, but not on the other components, then you are undercutting that transducer. For me I've found that the source does make a fair bit of difference, even out of the same recordings, so I do belive that one should spend a fair bit on sources if they want to maximize their equipment. |
X2
I think people like buying new amps and headphones because they're easier to play around with, you can hear different things every time, and can buy and sell without much financial loss or second thoughts. It's the fun part of the hobby. A source is an investment that, for most people, remains pretty stable. Once you get headphones or speakers that are capable of revealing nuances, a good source is essential and satisfying, but not as much fun.
Though I hadn't really thought about it before reading this thread, aside from my R10s, my main source would be the most expensive component in my system had I bought it new. Come to think of it, even in my portable rig, my source (imod) is the most expensive (though I'm toying with the idea of custom iems and that'll blow that example out the window). With CDPs, I simply listened to quite a few, and chose the best I could buy in my budget. There are others I've heard that I liked better for different things (Esoteric SA10 is better at SACD but equal in Redbook), and others I've heard, loved, and could never afford, but what's the point of having great headphones if you're not giving them what they need to shine?
I bought good headphones first, but as I got better and better ones, I quickly realized, by listening to others' set-ups, that mine didn't sound as good as those who had better sources. It's pretty obvious once you've heard the difference.
Example: I don't particularly like the new Denon AH-D5000s, but in a pre-meet hang out session, FL style, in my hotel room, I checked them out using my gear and my CDs, but instead of the Exemplar Denon 2900 (my main source), I was using a Lector 0.6T, which is a really musical, sweet sounding CDP that I like a lot, especially considering the price is half that of the modded Denon. I commented that the headphones sounded congested. Thrice, who owns them, listened for a minute, and said, "It's the source." We switched to the Exemplar, and dangit, the things opened up. It wasn't my imagination, and I can say that because I still don't like them, but they did sound better. Source, at a certain level, does makes a difference, and imo, my headphones deserve the best I can give them.
Mogul
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Quote:
I don't mean to pick on one particular post (I enjoy reading your contributions), but this totally defines what I feel is far too prevalent in the hi-if hobby: equipment before music. You really wouldn't listen to music at all? To me that is like giving up eating unless you can have filet mignon at every meal.
| Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif well that is the debate and from the above you clearly are in the source last or not at all camp. if my source was an ipod and i could never have something better, i would probably get out of audio entirely. |
I don't mean to pick on one particular post (I enjoy reading your contributions), but this totally defines what I feel is far too prevalent in the hi-if hobby: equipment before music. You really wouldn't listen to music at all? To me that is like giving up eating unless you can have filet mignon at every meal.
boomana
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Quote:
That's a interesting point, but knowing quite a few head-fiers personally, it ends up being all about the music once we're listening. We talk about gear here because we can, but I listen to and enjoy music far more (not including live music) since I've gotten into the better equipment side of things. My friends and co-workers share and talk about music with me all the time, but they could care less about which opamp is better in the PRII, and that's fun to me. I do agree that there is a problem in that once you've heard music with really good gear, it's harder to enjoy it on crappy sytems, at least for me.
| Originally Posted by Mogul /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't mean to pick on one particular post (I enjoy reading your contributions), but this totally defines what I feel is far too prevalent in the hi-if hobby: equipment before music. You really wouldn't listen to music at all? To me that is like giving up eating unless you can have filet mignon at every meal. |
That's a interesting point, but knowing quite a few head-fiers personally, it ends up being all about the music once we're listening. We talk about gear here because we can, but I listen to and enjoy music far more (not including live music) since I've gotten into the better equipment side of things. My friends and co-workers share and talk about music with me all the time, but they could care less about which opamp is better in the PRII, and that's fun to me. I do agree that there is a problem in that once you've heard music with really good gear, it's harder to enjoy it on crappy sytems, at least for me.
PFKMan23
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Quote:
I tend to take a different approach to his comment. To me that says, I just wouldn't care so much about the equipment side of things. For example, I know a lot of people who listen to music, but yet I wouldn't call myself more appreciative or whatnot of it simply because I may listen to better equipment. That being said I do agree with you that a lot of people, myself included, can fall too far into the equipment side of things and thereby forget about the essence of the hobby. On the other hand I know people who spend a lot more on clothes and spend a lot longer grooming themselves than I do.
| Originally Posted by Mogul /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't mean to pick on one particular post (I enjoy reading your contributions), but this totally defines what I feel is far too prevalent in the hi-if hobby: equipment before music. You really wouldn't listen to music at all? To me that is like giving up eating unless you can have filet mignon at every meal. |
I tend to take a different approach to his comment. To me that says, I just wouldn't care so much about the equipment side of things. For example, I know a lot of people who listen to music, but yet I wouldn't call myself more appreciative or whatnot of it simply because I may listen to better equipment. That being said I do agree with you that a lot of people, myself included, can fall too far into the equipment side of things and thereby forget about the essence of the hobby. On the other hand I know people who spend a lot more on clothes and spend a lot longer grooming themselves than I do.
gates_2
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a decent source doesn't' necessarily have to break the bank.
I recently modded my sony CE595($66 shipped to me) with a LM4562 opamp, and wow, it sounds much much better. Now, of course, I'm sure I'd appreciate a better player a bit more, but it sounds better than what most use as sources. Ipods really don't sound that good. For portables, the Imod is nice(listened to it a fair amount), but not a match for a good home source, imho.
I recently modded my sony CE595($66 shipped to me) with a LM4562 opamp, and wow, it sounds much much better. Now, of course, I'm sure I'd appreciate a better player a bit more, but it sounds better than what most use as sources. Ipods really don't sound that good. For portables, the Imod is nice(listened to it a fair amount), but not a match for a good home source, imho.
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Speaking as one who's played quite a bit of CDP roulette, I can say that source absolutely matters, and it can also make you either tolerate, dis-like, or really like your CDs. Yeah, investing in sources is expensive, it's been the most expensive part of my equipment upgrade path. When I got my first post-Head-Fi source, a DVD player, I expected it to be my last - and well here I am, six sources later.
I don't think I'd go as far as vcoheda in saying that buying new is a bad investment - it definitely has its advantages if you want a warranty and peace of mind and want to support a dealer (especially since sometimes dealers will give you a price break), but it has its downside with re-sale value. If you routinely check Audiogon, you'll see lots of sources are sold for 50%-67% of their MSRP. That's a HUGE chunk of change on the expensive sources. For the stuff that's in 9/10 or even 10/10 condition it's a downright steal. Needless to say my mantra is "Buy used on Audiogon, sell used on Head-Fi!"
And the top-tier headphones absolutely scale with high-end sources. I've been cumulatively blown away at how much more music the K701 reveals as I've upgraded my source. It's literally unbelievable - for those who've heard the K701 on lesser equipment you might think you're satisfied now, but all you need to do is hear it with a high-end amp AND a high-end source, and it'll scale right up there along with them. Same thing with the HD650 and AD2000 - these headphones are just amazing with the scaling they're capable of. I don't even know how high they scale - my wallet is too afraid to find out.
I don't think I'd go as far as vcoheda in saying that buying new is a bad investment - it definitely has its advantages if you want a warranty and peace of mind and want to support a dealer (especially since sometimes dealers will give you a price break), but it has its downside with re-sale value. If you routinely check Audiogon, you'll see lots of sources are sold for 50%-67% of their MSRP. That's a HUGE chunk of change on the expensive sources. For the stuff that's in 9/10 or even 10/10 condition it's a downright steal. Needless to say my mantra is "Buy used on Audiogon, sell used on Head-Fi!"
And the top-tier headphones absolutely scale with high-end sources. I've been cumulatively blown away at how much more music the K701 reveals as I've upgraded my source. It's literally unbelievable - for those who've heard the K701 on lesser equipment you might think you're satisfied now, but all you need to do is hear it with a high-end amp AND a high-end source, and it'll scale right up there along with them. Same thing with the HD650 and AD2000 - these headphones are just amazing with the scaling they're capable of. I don't even know how high they scale - my wallet is too afraid to find out.
Quote:
yes. that is exactly what i meant. i have been listening to music all day today via Internet radio through cheap computer speakers. i am listening to it right now as i type. why. because i have been working all day and the music sounds good in the background. a nice change from total silence, which is actually sometimes harder to concentrate in. how does the music sound. well. it sounds okay. but that is all i require as i am working and not really listening. the music is there and i hear it but i am focusing on my work. i am not involved in, thinking about or feeling, or enveloped, enchanted, or transported by the music. that is not work conducive. if i want the total aural experience i go to my rig. and my point was that if my rig was limited to an ipod as a source, that would be like listening to music from my computer. background noise. and if that is true, then there is no way i am spending $500 or more on headphones and $1000 or more on an amp. the limitations of the source would make those purchases pointless.
| Originally Posted by PFKMan23 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I tend to take a different approach to his comment. To me that says, I just wouldn't care so much about the equipment side of things. |
yes. that is exactly what i meant. i have been listening to music all day today via Internet radio through cheap computer speakers. i am listening to it right now as i type. why. because i have been working all day and the music sounds good in the background. a nice change from total silence, which is actually sometimes harder to concentrate in. how does the music sound. well. it sounds okay. but that is all i require as i am working and not really listening. the music is there and i hear it but i am focusing on my work. i am not involved in, thinking about or feeling, or enveloped, enchanted, or transported by the music. that is not work conducive. if i want the total aural experience i go to my rig. and my point was that if my rig was limited to an ipod as a source, that would be like listening to music from my computer. background noise. and if that is true, then there is no way i am spending $500 or more on headphones and $1000 or more on an amp. the limitations of the source would make those purchases pointless.
rincewind
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Quote:
I agree 100% with YOU.
Quote:
I agree 50% with YOU.
Yes, some manufacturers knew very good DAC design waaaay back when they started. But NO @ "Even the crappiest DAC still sounds good" this sentence is in fact a contradiction
I assume u meant "cheapest" hahah
hahahahah
At least to me, we're not talking about $100 source and 1000 cans and amp... that's just stupid. I'm thinking $1000 on source, $500 amp and $400 cans will absolutely WHALLOP anything like 200 on source, 1000 amp, 1000 cans. And I mean completely obliterate. The 500/400 split will give a VERY clear window to the 1000 buck source and the music it's playing. The 1000 amp and 1000 cans will give a VERY good window to the absolute JUNK coming from the 200 buck source.
I picked these numbers arbitrarily, but now I look at them, they are about right in real life
Although on cans you could go cheaper like K701 and be VERY happy given a good source, just like ASR says!
| Originally Posted by Asr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Speaking as one who's played quite a bit of CDP roulette, I can say that source absolutely matters, and it can also make you either tolerate, dis-like, or really like your CDs. Yeah, investing in sources is expensive, it's been the most expensive part of my equipment upgrade path. When I got my first post-Head-Fi source, a DVD player, I expected it to be my last - and well here I am, six sources later.
I don't think I'd go as far as vcoheda in saying that buying new is a bad investment - it definitely has its advantages if you want a warranty and peace of mind and want to support a dealer (especially since sometimes dealers will give you a price break), but it has its downside with re-sale value. If you routinely check Audiogon, you'll see lots of sources are sold for 50%-67% of their MSRP. That's a HUGE chunk of change on the expensive sources. For the stuff that's in 9/10 or even 10/10 condition it's a downright steal. Needless to say my mantra is "Buy used on Audiogon, sell used on Head-Fi!"
And the top-tier headphones absolutely scale with high-end sources. I've been cumulatively blown away at how much more music the K701 reveals as I've upgraded my source. It's literally unbelievable - for those who've heard the K701 on lesser equipment you might think you're satisfied now, but all you need to do is hear it with a high-end amp AND a high-end source, and it'll scale right up there along with them. Same thing with the HD650 and AD2000 - these headphones are just amazing with the scaling they're capable of. I don't even know how high they scale - my wallet is too afraid to find out.
|
I agree 100% with YOU.
Quote:
| DACs have been around for years and the designers have pretty much figured out how to design them and produce them cheap. Even the crappiest DAC still sounds good. |
I agree 50% with YOU.
Yes, some manufacturers knew very good DAC design waaaay back when they started. But NO @ "Even the crappiest DAC still sounds good" this sentence is in fact a contradiction
I assume u meant "cheapest" hahahhahahahah
At least to me, we're not talking about $100 source and 1000 cans and amp... that's just stupid. I'm thinking $1000 on source, $500 amp and $400 cans will absolutely WHALLOP anything like 200 on source, 1000 amp, 1000 cans. And I mean completely obliterate. The 500/400 split will give a VERY clear window to the 1000 buck source and the music it's playing. The 1000 amp and 1000 cans will give a VERY good window to the absolute JUNK coming from the 200 buck source.
I picked these numbers arbitrarily, but now I look at them, they are about right in real life
Kees
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Quote:
I agree 100%!!!
On the topic of the low-end sources: I think they have improved. The very low end has risen considerably in SQ. On a scale from 0-10 there a re not many sources any more that will rate lower than 4-5, and I think the 5-7 segment is quite densely populated.
Above that: VERY few qualify...
On transducers: They are COMPLETELY dependent on amp & source. It is the amp that makes them perform. They are only the audible extension of the amp. The better they are matched, the better they will be able to sound.
It is the amp that controls everything the transducer does.
The source: The source "decides" what you will hear. The amp/transducer combination is only a potential: nothing will come out if you don't put it in there. Everything you hear either comes from your source or shouldn't be there. Every change in your source will always directly influence the sound you hear.
Just my 2c.
| Originally Posted by rincewind /img/forum/go_quote.gif At least to me, we're not talking about $100 source and 1000 cans and amp... that's just stupid. I'm thinking $1000 on source, $500 amp and $400 cans will absolutely WHALLOP anything like 200 on source, 1000 amp, 1000 cans. And I mean completely obliterate. The 500/400 split will give a VERY clear window to the 1000 buck source and the music it's playing. The 1000 amp and 1000 cans will give a VERY good window to the absolute JUNK coming from the 200 buck source. I picked these numbers arbitrarily, but now I look at them, they are about right in real life
|
I agree 100%!!!
On the topic of the low-end sources: I think they have improved. The very low end has risen considerably in SQ. On a scale from 0-10 there a re not many sources any more that will rate lower than 4-5, and I think the 5-7 segment is quite densely populated.
Above that: VERY few qualify...
On transducers: They are COMPLETELY dependent on amp & source. It is the amp that makes them perform. They are only the audible extension of the amp. The better they are matched, the better they will be able to sound.
It is the amp that controls everything the transducer does.
The source: The source "decides" what you will hear. The amp/transducer combination is only a potential: nothing will come out if you don't put it in there. Everything you hear either comes from your source or shouldn't be there. Every change in your source will always directly influence the sound you hear.
Just my 2c.
Hi-Finthen
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A cost balanced mid priced system rewarding $300 cans a prepared signal to extract their higher sonic potential requires a precentage breakdown in the range of 40/30/20 % source/amp/phones minimum....IMO
Of course there is a great range in what can be spent in such a system specifically with $2000 to spend. However, in my experience each hundred spent in source and amps has yielded more preformance potential attained in the headphones I've collected...
I believe this is evidence of the importance of spending on the gear chain before the phones, in a balanced system in the percentages 40/30/20 for best results! I will not touch defining the term "Best' which misses the point, IMO.
Of course there is a great range in what can be spent in such a system specifically with $2000 to spend. However, in my experience each hundred spent in source and amps has yielded more preformance potential attained in the headphones I've collected...
I believe this is evidence of the importance of spending on the gear chain before the phones, in a balanced system in the percentages 40/30/20 for best results! I will not touch defining the term "Best' which misses the point, IMO.
Mogul
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Quote:
What are you doing with the other 10%?
| Originally Posted by Hi-Finthen /img/forum/go_quote.gif A cost balanced mid priced system rewarding $300 cans a prepared signal to extract their higher sonic potential requires a precentage breakdown in the range of 40/30/20 % source/amp/phones minimum....IMO Of course there is a great range in what can be spent in such a system specifically with $2000 to spend. However, in my experience each hundred spent in source and amps has yielded more preformance potential attained in the headphones I've collected... I believe this is evidence of the importance of spending on the gear chain before the phones, in a balanced system in the percentages 40/30/20 for best results! I will not touch defining the term "Best' which misses the point, IMO. |
What are you doing with the other 10%?
d-cee
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Quote:
cables/tweaks/voodoo etc.
| Originally Posted by Mogul /img/forum/go_quote.gif What are you doing with the other 10%?
|
cables/tweaks/voodoo etc.
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