Has anyone done any blind tests? I haven't tried many DAC myself. My personal dac are Monolith DAC/Amp and Schiit Bifrost. Has anyone tried to upgrade a older DAC to one of the recent models? Does it improve soundstage and imaging? Your input is greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.
Head-Fi isn't very friendly to blind tests outside of sound science, probably for good reason. Might be a little embarrassing for the people running around claiming night-and-day differences between DACs if it turns out they can't reliably tell the difference between a $20 DAC and a $2,000 DAC
I agree with some of the others that listening for yourself is probably the best way to decide, but I'd be wary of meets or shops or even just plugging/unplugging stuff from your system at home. All of those scenarios could introduce a whole bunch of biases that could sway your impressions. Even doing a blind test could potentially be biased if, for instance, you already assume there's no difference.
I'm also leery of goalpost-shifting and excuse-making. This has already happened at least twice in this thread with people saying DACs do sound different, but you can't hear a difference because yours happen to sound similar, and that the Sound Science members couldn't hear a difference because they're deaf. This happens a lot and there's really no bottom to that barrel: your headphones aren't good enough, your cables aren't good enough, your amp isn't good enough, you're doing it wrong, you're deaf, and on and on.
To be clear, I don't know whether or not DACs all sound the same, but I'm (deeply) skeptical. I'm even more skeptical of the claims that people make, though, and I include both sides of the argument in that statement. As to why I've never bothered with any blind testing: my general attitude is that science pretty well understands/explains what humans can and can't hear and I don't need to prove that to myself (or anybody else) every time I put on a pair of headphones. I don't need to re-prove that 1+1=2 or that gravity is a thing. I'm comfortable with where the accepted science stands. My goal is to enjoy my music, not to nitpick differences between equipment.
I used my Fiio E10K and it's pretty alright. Better than onboard audio of the motherboard. Then I upgraded to Fiio K5 Pro and the difference is noticeable.
Clear sound, boomy and very good! But I'll never spend more than €200 on a dac/amp. The headphones on the other hand are number one that makes a difference.
I think there are probably enough differences in topology and implementation that some DACs may sound very subtly different, even if based around the same chip, but I also think there's a big push on this website toward the thinking that you need to spend tons of money on every component of your set-up or you're doing it wrong and missing out on some nebulous amount of sound quality, and I'm very skeptical of that thinking.
I think there are a lot of audiophile myths that are just widely taken at face value without a critical eye, and how someone wants to spend their money is their own business, but people are also asking advice on here and sometimes chasing a high-end DAC might be the wrong decision for them.
Personally, I think it's largely nonsense that there are drastic differences between DACs beyond really bargain basement stuff. I have no doubt that some people hear big differences, but someone hearing a difference doesn't necessarily mean there is a difference, and even if there are subtle difference I think there's a lot of hyperbole going on. Also, a difference doesn't mean better. It's very easy to find a transparent DAC these days for not a lot of money. You might want to spend a bit more if you have specific features you want, but if your DAC sounds drastically different than every other DAC it might just be poorly designed.
So if someone is looking to upgrade their sound, it's probably worth asking themselves what they're hoping to accomplish and where their money should be going to accomplish that, and when it gets down to it a DAC probably isn't a smart place to dump your money.
Right....the hobby is primarily built around the enjoyment of music. It should never be about equipment in emphasis. In the 70s and 80s you had audiophiles but there were no DACs really, until the mid 1980s. So you had a cassette or a turntable and then three tone knobs. The extent was to adjust the tone knob and that was it, you concentrated on music.........or Dolby? Lol
Anyway the time came around 2010 when now there were choices but also the beginning of hi-res. The difficult thing was no DAC did it all and you had to choose what option per model. There still is a debate if anything above 16/44.1 is even important. So people get gear due to social pressure and something close to “Audio Insurance” where they want to be covered “just in case” just in case something is there. Because they have been told by others that something is there.
Posted is the 10 year old $349 DACMagic. It does not do DSD, nor play high sample rates and shows how times have changed. When the DAC came out there was a miss-fire where the drivers didn’t work for 1/2 of Head-Fi. People here purchased a DAC but it would not play with their computer. This shows how far we have come. The flip side is the DAC still sounds wonderful and has a character. It’s not a giant difference from other DACs, and at times it’s dependent on the song even. The others that concern themselves with spending all kinds of money are looking for that last 10% of sound quality. It’s debatable if that 10% is there. It’s more “there” in amps and headphones.
The psychological reason was that music was/is enjoyable, so they think the 10% will make it even more enjoyable. When a person can settle down and forget about the equipment is when they are entertained by the music. That is unless they are more entertained by gear?
Right....the hobby is primarily built around the enjoyment of music. It should never be about equipment in emphasis. In the 70s and 80s you had audiophiles but there were no DACs really, until the mid 1980s. So you had a cassette or a turntable and then three tone knobs. The extent was to adjust the tone knob and that was it, you concentrated on music.........or Dolby? Lol
Anyway the time came around 2010 when now there were choices but also the beginning of hi-res. The difficult thing was no DAC did it all and you had to choose what option per model. There still is a debate if anything above 16/44.1 is even important. So people get gear due to social pressure and something close to “Audio Insurance” where they want to be covered “just in case” just in case something is there. Because they have been told by others that something is there.
Posted is the 10 year old $349 DACMagic. It does not do DSD, nor play high sample rates and shows how times have changed. When the DAC came out there was a miss-fire where the drivers didn’t work for 1/2 of Head-Fi. People here purchased a DAC but it would not play with their computer. This shows how far we have come. The flip side is the DAC still sounds wonderful and has a character. It’s not a giant difference from other DACs, and at times it’s dependent on the song even. The others that concern themselves with spending all kinds of money are looking for that last 10% of sound quality.
The psychological reason was that music was/is enjoyable, so they think the 10% will make it even more enjoyable. When a person can settle down and forget about the equipment is when they are entertained by the music. That is unless they are more entertained by gear?
This hobby is never meant to be "who has the biggest" equipment. And after all, it's ONLY YOU deciding! You have the control over your wallet and you decide your maximum budget. And who the eff cares about your gear?! It's all about the enjoyment, only that matters. And of course on what your intentions are and within your limits.
I had another thread with something somewhat similar, the source was different, dac & IEM the same but the output sound was different sounding, Which baffled me completely.
This hobby is never meant to be "who has the biggest" equipment. And after all, it's ONLY YOU deciding! You have the control over your wallet and you decide your maximum budget. And who the eff cares about your gear?! It's all about the enjoyment, only that matters. And of course on what your intentions are and within your limits.
That’s so true. A lot of the time the hi-rollers are the most unhappy. I worked where everyone complained they couldn’t spend their money. They couldn’t spend the money they made as they owned no time.
Owning time can be valuable and a resource. But the guy trying to show how he has all the sports cars and ladies at times is the person really not enjoying life. The financial pressure and the pressure to appear to be a winner because the Kardashians have nice things.
That’s so true. A lot of the time the hi-rollers are the most unhappy. I worked where everyone complained they couldn’t spend their money. They couldn’t spend the money they made as they owned no time.
Owning time can be valuable and a resource. But the guy trying to show how he has all the sports cars and ladies at times is the person really not enjoying life. The financial pressure and the pressure to appear to be a winner because the Kardashians have nice things.
Very true. That guy showing off all the sports cars he own and the ladies is actually trying to impress the others while in reality, he's not doing any good to himself.
Being a nobody in disguise and enjoy it at fullest with sincere ^_^
I had another thread with something somewhat similar, the source was different, dac & IEM the same but the output sound was different sounding, Which baffled me completely.
One of the final end-game paranoias is noise. The noise that you think you can hear. So it maybe true that this noise can be battled. First you have to justify that the noise is real. There are two camps. Also I will be the first to admit that I know very little. I have all these posts and I read all these posts, but I know close to zero.
I do know that the ear is the best tester. That you can read about the people that believe there is no noise, and the other side is the people trying to hear if it’s gone.
If it did exist in the first place then a list of noise issues has to be listed. Now the problem is if we get expectations that we will hear digital noise then we do. Meaning we have been told things could be bad for the quality and just being told to the human mind makes those changes take place in perception.
But why to people by 10K DACs. Why do people buy $100 USB cables. And the one that the guys in the white coats come and put you in the white van is when you think you hear the strain on your computer making more noise, like a F ing car motor. That strain is the PC losing it’s ability to make a quite USB signal and a well timed USB signal.
And....people feel different micro-flash cards have different levels of noise. So does the expensive DAC have less noise?
'high end' audio is inflated in pricing which is apparent. Price doesn't correlate directly to how you perceive the sound being quality or not. This part is quite subjective due to taste difference among us. It's also possible that people do not pay attention to the same then when assessing quality. It's a fact that our minds cannot take in all information provided to us and we focus our thoughts to whatever we hone in on.
How do we gauge the significance of the differences we notice from one source to another? Is this part that we focused on a significant portion or tiny portion of the presentation of sound? How do we quantify this? Lots of questions.
I got to try out Monoprice Cavalli amps, and I can undeniably say SE sounds worse than balanced. As to why, I do not know. Perhaps the SE was gimped. Are all amps as obvious as Cavalli Monoprice amps? No.
Although listening for yourself will reveal what you ask, it's important to be wary of placebo effects as well. Can you trust yourself? lol
But, also it's not wise to believe blindly what others tell you as truth.
Statistics is objective right? You have two people. One believes black swan doesn't exist because a objectivist says so. Another looked at many swans, and ran into a black one.
What others are saying - just listen and decide for yourself if it's worth it. Also keep in mind that other components in the chain or your own ears may be a big enough bottleneck that you won't hear a difference (no shame in it - just a hard reality).
FWIW, in the very informal single blind listening tests I've done for myself I could hear the difference with my gear. Note that I did not apply sound statistical, DoX, or clinical techniques, did not do super fine volume matching, etc.
ASR brings up some potentially valid concepts and criticisms here and there (they're 100% right to say that there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there), but everything I've heard and experienced to date do not generally agree with their claims about "sound science". I also strongly suspect botched measurements and techniques, poor application of said "science", and have a slew of other complaints against them.
2 biggest complaints:
1) It's silly to me that ASR actually thinks that something as analog as sound that also involves different hearing and psychoacoustics / processing by different people (see your local audiologist and have them measure the different aspects of your hearing if you don't believe me) can be boiled down into 1-3 graphs and 1-2 numbers. Their influence on the market has been a net negative IMO b/c they have swayed the market into pushing out cheap gear that mostly sounds bad but "measures well" in these few limited ways. If I were to spend money on this cheap gear thinking "it's as good as it gets" and then heard this crappy sounding gear, I'd probably be turned off from "hi-fi" as well.
2) Implication there that people who buy audio gear b/c "keeping up with Joneseseseses" - if anything, most people I know with a significant amount of $ (let's say mid 4 figures and up) in their audio equipment don't talk about it much, don't show it off, and almost laugh at the thought of buying gear b/c of "lifestyle shots and instagram" - they bought it b/c they heard something they liked and wanted to buy it. That and if it really didn't get any better, why does Topping need more than 1 model of DAC? Why not just recommend it as "the one answer" and be done?
With the above being said, I repeat my first point - listen for yourself. Do not use any reviews as truths but rather as guidelines to expedite the gear hunt and listening experience.
What others are saying - just listen and decide for yourself if it's worth it. Also keep in mind that other components in the chain or your own ears may be a big enough bottleneck that you won't hear a difference (no shame in it - just a hard reality).
FWIW, in the very informal single blind listening tests I've done for myself I could hear the difference with my gear. Note that I did not apply sound statistical, DoX, or clinical techniques, did not do super fine volume matching, etc.
ASR brings up some potentially valid concepts and criticisms here and there (they're 100% right to say that there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there), but everything I've heard and experienced to date do not generally agree with their claims about "sound science". I also strongly suspect botched measurements and techniques, poor application of said "science", and have a slew of other complaints against them.
2 biggest complaints:
1) It's silly to me that ASR actually thinks that something as analog as sound that also involves different hearing and psychoacoustics / processing by different people (see your local audiologist and have them measure the different aspects of your hearing if you don't believe me) can be boiled down into 1-3 graphs and 1-2 numbers. Their influence on the market has been a net negative IMO b/c they have swayed the market into pushing out cheap gear that mostly sounds bad but "measures well" in these few limited ways. If I were to spend money on this cheap gear thinking "it's as good as it gets" and then heard this crappy sounding gear, I'd probably be turned off from "hi-fi" as well.
2) Implication there that people who buy audio gear b/c "keeping up with Joneseseseses" - if anything, most people I know with a significant amount of $ (let's say mid 4 figures and up) in their audio equipment don't talk about it much, don't show it off, and almost laugh at the thought of buying gear b/c of "lifestyle shots and instagram" - they bought it b/c they heard something they liked and wanted to buy it. That and if it really didn't get any better, why does Topping need more than 1 model of DAC? Why not just recommend it as "the one answer" and be done?
With the above being said, I repeat my first point - listen for yourself. Do not use any reviews as truths but rather as guidelines to expedite the gear hunt and listening experience.
Both sides must be questioned and looked at critically, weather they call their beliefs 'science' or not. Calling your believe 'science' doesn't make it a truthful one as history has shown that has been fallacies in 'science.'
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It's all about the enjoyment, only that matters. And of course on what your intentions are and within your limits.
