Do different DACS sound different?

[CTR640]

From the comment section:
'I’d call him a clown, but clowns actually work and some people actually like them'

Bro, that is savage

 

[Redcarmoose]

What others are saying - just listen and decide for yourself if it's worth it. Also keep in mind that other components in the chain or your own ears may be a big enough bottleneck that you won't hear a difference (no shame in it - just a hard reality).

FWIW, in the very informal single blind listening tests I've done for myself I could hear the difference with my gear. Note that I did not apply sound statistical, DoX, or clinical techniques, did not do super fine volume matching, etc.

ASR brings up some potentially valid concepts and criticisms here and there (they're 100% right to say that there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there), but everything I've heard and experienced to date do not generally agree with their claims about "sound science". I also strongly suspect botched measurements and techniques, poor application of said "science", and have a slew of other complaints against them.
2 biggest complaints:
1) It's silly to me that ASR actually thinks that something as analog as sound that also involves different hearing and psychoacoustics / processing by different people (see your local audiologist and have them measure the different aspects of your hearing if you don't believe me) can be boiled down into 1-3 graphs and 1-2 numbers. Their influence on the market has been a net negative IMO b/c they have swayed the market into pushing out cheap gear that mostly sounds bad but "measures well" in these few limited ways. If I were to spend money on this cheap gear thinking "it's as good as it gets" and then heard this crappy sounding gear, I'd probably be turned off from "hi-fi" as well.
2) Implication there that people who buy audio gear b/c "keeping up with Joneseseseses" - if anything, most people I know with a significant amount of $ (let's say mid 4 figures and up) in their audio equipment don't talk about it much, don't show it off, and almost laugh at the thought of buying gear b/c of "lifestyle shots and instagram" - they bought it b/c they heard something they liked and wanted to buy it. That and if it really didn't get any better, why does Topping need more than 1 model of DAC? Why not just recommend it as "the one answer" and be done?

With the above being said, I repeat my first point - listen for yourself. Do not use any reviews as truths but rather as guidelines to expedite the gear hunt and listening experience.

Right there are two buyers in the high end audio shop. One needs the stereo to go with the house and pool. The other guy is actually into audio.

The first group will never be back for an upgrade. The audio guy will.

The audio sales personal have to be able to figure this out. As the pool home owners will come back to see how the new stuff looks in the shop. The chance of them buying again is zero%.

 

[Redcarmoose]

From the comment section:
'I’d call him a clown, but clowns actually work and some people actually like them'

Bro, that is savage

My sides.

 

[HipHopScribe]

What others are saying - just listen and decide for yourself if it's worth it. Also keep in mind that other components in the chain or your own ears may be a big enough bottleneck that you won't hear a difference (no shame in it - just a hard reality).

FWIW, in the very informal single blind listening tests I've done for myself I could hear the difference with my gear. Note that I did not apply sound statistical, DoX, or clinical techniques, did not do super fine volume matching, etc.

ASR brings up some potentially valid concepts and criticisms here and there (they're 100% right to say that there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there), but everything I've heard and experienced to date do not generally agree with their claims about "sound science". I also strongly suspect botched measurements and techniques, poor application of said "science", and have a slew of other complaints against them.
2 biggest complaints:
1) It's silly to me that ASR actually thinks that something as analog as sound that also involves different hearing and psychoacoustics / processing by different people (see your local audiologist and have them measure the different aspects of your hearing if you don't believe me) can be boiled down into 1-3 graphs and 1-2 numbers. Their influence on the market has been a net negative IMO b/c they have swayed the market into pushing out cheap gear that mostly sounds bad but "measures well" in these few limited ways. If I were to spend money on this cheap gear thinking "it's as good as it gets" and then heard this crappy sounding gear, I'd probably be turned off from "hi-fi" as well.
2) Implication there that people who buy audio gear b/c "keeping up with Joneseseseses" - if anything, most people I know with a significant amount of $ (let's say mid 4 figures and up) in their audio equipment don't talk about it much, don't show it off, and almost laugh at the thought of buying gear b/c of "lifestyle shots and instagram" - they bought it b/c they heard something they liked and wanted to buy it. That and if it really didn't get any better, why does Topping need more than 1 model of DAC? Why not just recommend it as "the one answer" and be done?

With the above being said, I repeat my first point - listen for yourself. Do not use any reviews as truths but rather as guidelines to expedite the gear hunt and listening experience.

Topping needs more than 1 model of DAC because they want to make money. They're a business, and there are people who will buy a $700 DAC with the right features, reputation and marketing who won't even look at a $130 because it's too cheap, and there are also people who will buy a $130 DAC but aren't even considering a $700 because it's too expensive. Topping wants to sell to both people, and they want people who buy the less expensive DAC to feel the need to upgrade and buy another DAC later because that means more money for them.

Does a $700 Topping sound better than a $130 Topping DAC? Maybe, maybe not, but what drives someone's buying decision is much more complicated than just how something sounds, and even subjective listening impressions are much more complicated than how something sounds. No one is immune to human psychology, the best you can do is recognize that marketing, social influence and various biases will affect what you hear one way or the other.

Personally, I've learned not to trust my ears too much in these matters and to question people who claim to have golden ears.

 

[CTR640]

Topping needs more than 1 model of DAC because they want to make money. They're a business, and there are people who will buy a $700 DAC with the right features, reputation and marketing who won't even look at a $130 because it's too cheap, and there are also people who will buy a $130 DAC but aren't even considering a $700 because it's too expensive. Topping wants to sell to both people, and they want people who buy the less expensive DAC to feel the need to upgrade and buy another DAC later because that means more money for them.

Does a $700 Topping sound better than a $130 Topping DAC? Maybe, maybe not, but what drives someone's buying decision is much more complicated than just how something sounds, and even subjective listening impressions are much more complicated than how something sounds. No one is immune to human psychology, the best you can do is recognize that marketing, social influence and various biases will affect what you hear one way or the other.

Personally, I've learned not to trust my ears too much in these matters and to question people who claim to have golden ears.

That sounds like food options like for fast food. Popcorn example, there are choices of small, medium and large. Or Coke Zero "without" sugar.

 

[spacelion2077]

Topping needs more than 1 model of DAC because they want to make money. They're a business, and there are people who will buy a $700 DAC with the right features, reputation and marketing who won't even look at a $130 because it's too cheap, and there are also people who will buy a $130 DAC but aren't even considering a $700 because it's too expensive. Topping wants to sell to both people, and they want people who buy the less expensive DAC to feel the need to upgrade and buy another DAC later because that means more money for them.

Does a $700 Topping sound better than a $130 Topping DAC? Maybe, maybe not, but what drives someone's buying decision is much more complicated than just how something sounds, and even subjective listening impressions are much more complicated than how something sounds. No one is immune to human psychology, the best you can do is recognize that marketing, social influence and various biases will affect what you hear one way or the other.

Personally, I've learned not to trust my ears too much in these matters and to question people who claim to have golden ears.

I've been hearing good things about the Topping D90 being the giant killer. It has some of the best measurements in the game. It's in the same price range with my Bifrost and I couldn't tell the difference between Bifrost connecting to THX789 and Monolith Dac connecting to it. They all sound very clean and well separated. Tried to contact Audio46 today, they don't have that dac in house to demo.

I'm not ready to dish out 3k on Yggdrasil yet. Some of the dac from my research goes over 10k. That's asking a bit too much imo. I'll buy Topping D90 on amazon to see if it makes any notable improvement to sounds, if not I'll just return it.

 

[spacelion2077]

Probably the best word to use here is color. Distortion sounds like a guitar amp, when we are trying to relay how the amp is taking the overall tone and adding something. I had a buddy who was testing this DAC for a week, and his whole complex was that it was slightly brighter. So maybe his old DAC was dark, maybe more neutral and transparent, but what ever it was this new DAC with treble got him to think it was way more detail. All of us are trying to balance detail with not too much brightness and enough low end punch with out the sound slowing down by the bass waves connecting at some point. It's all about PRAT and tone, and soundstage and how fast the transients are. Along with that there needs to be a feeling of timbre which allows us to feel the music is natural and real.



In the old-school audiophile world they thought everything they were buying was transparent. All you heard was transparent. And in 1989 the idea of the audiophile signature was very clear and neutral.......so time passed and you ended with two dramatically different audiophiles. One was a bass head and one more neutral, also to add a third it would be people that like extreme treble. Later too just a couple of years ago the Harman Curve was introduced. Interestingly enough to us now the Harman Curve seems to have more bass? Well it's a presence in that area. So Harman has suggested this curve as how the general public "could" interpret the graphed out response as natural.

Natural is just us accepting the music as the way it is suppose to be. Yet again your first job is to find out your preferences.

Hot sounding.......Cold sounding........Bright............all these terms.......yet happiness is finding the bath water just right.To our perception we don't want stuff too bass laden or too bright.

The problem is you simply have to live with this gear till you know it's right. Even people who have had lots of systems and done this for years have different days where they like different gear.

So find a brand you think you may like and read peoples stories. Typically going to a Head-Fi meet will help but this is really something you have to concern yourself with over the course of months to get it right. I came from vinyl so I didn't even have a CD player or CDs for years. I ended with a very warm DAC in my Rega Planet CD player and I was happy. Thus you get to know yourself. Now every DAC does everything. The new streaming services and even networking can come into play as things to look for when making a purchase. But I'm still not sure how much DSD helps? I do know I like 24bit. But........there is so much psychology involved. If we are told something is better we believe it. That is what sales is. Yet in audio it causes a confirmation bias. We are told DSD is better and it sounds better.

So I can't help with products but try and explain my journey and how it progressed. Also in the journey keeping all your old gear, if you can.......................can help with learning to actually hear your progress. The old equipment is like snap shots of the past listening....you. Also you may start to define a gradual progression. People have specific trajectories where they end up with different sounding gear than they would have liked when they started.

There is no right or wrong, but also there is not one DAC for everyone. If I was starting out I would barrow one and spend days trying to figure out what I liked and what was off. The Sony DAPs have been an experience as the firmware was changed by hobbyists and the sound evolved. The sound got better and for some, we discovered new romance that comes with a tone that sounds right, but also has realism. Once you start locking into a tone, the equipment falls away and your left with pure music.

That's the point when you can get off the purchasing train as your at your success.

Cheers!

This is a good read. I didn't know the tone of the sound like bright neutral or dark applies to DAC as well. I thought its only job is to covert audio signal from digital to analog and doesn't do anything else. Thank you very much for your input

 

[buke9]

This is a good read. I didn't know the tone of the sound like bright neutral or dark applies to DAC as well. I thought its only job is to covert audio signal from digital to analog and doesn't do anything else. Thank you very much for your input

Well as you said it has to output to analog so this is where some differences in sound can happen and also with filters as well. To me a Modi3 sounds pretty much identical to a Khadas Tone Board which measures much better but neither sounds like my Yggdrasil. My Yggy is going on 5 years old now and this winter will probably go with the new Usb and Analog 2 upgrade well not so much new now but will be new to me. Some people like it some people don’t and for me I don’t care much what others think as it’s my ears and my money.

 

[VNandor]

Personally, I've learned not to trust my ears too much in these matters and to question people who claim to have golden ears.

Interesting but when I try to assess some audio gear's performance I spend a lot of effort (well, compared to most people anyways...) on making sure that it's the ears that I'm trusting and not something else. I think it's a good practice to trust your ears. Although sometimes I'm not jumping through all the hoops to form a really informed opinion but at least in these cases I try to not pretend that I do.

 

[penguinofsleep2]

I've been hearing good things about the Topping D90 being the giant killer. It has some of the best measurements in the game. It's in the same price range with my Bifrost and I couldn't tell the difference between Bifrost connecting to THX789 and Monolith Dac connecting to it. They all sound very clean and well separated. Tried to contact Audio46 today, they don't have that dac in house to demo.

I'm not ready to dish out 3k on Yggdrasil yet. Some of the dac from my research goes over 10k. That's asking a bit too much imo. I'll buy Topping D90 on amazon to see if it makes any notable improvement to sounds, if not I'll just return it.

I'd recommend a different amp if you can as the THX789 had a pretty compressed sound. While I could tell DACs apart on it, it was a lot harder than telling DACS apart on any of my other gear I compared it to (similarly priced or much more $ gear).

 

[spacelion2077]

I'd recommend a different amp if you can as the THX789 had a pretty compressed sound. While I could tell DACs apart on it, it was a lot harder than telling DACS apart on any of my other gear I compared it to (similarly priced or much more $ gear).

I've just bought a Topping A90 amp this week. It's suppose to be similar to THX 789 in terms of measurement with even more power. I'll see if it's good enough to make DACs sound different.

 

[buke9]

I'd recommend a different amp if you can as the THX789 had a pretty compressed sound. While I could tell DACs apart on it, it was a lot harder than telling DACS apart on any of my other gear I compared it to (similarly priced or much more $ gear).

That makes sense to me now. I bought a 789 just to hear it as it had such glowing reviews but with my Verites it just didn’t sound right. I also bought a Monoprice Liquid Platinum at the same time and using a Khadas Tone Board for both the Platinum was so much better and the 789 just sounded a bit off and I think it was that bit of compressed sound that did it in for me.

 

[spacelion2077]

789 is suppose to be end game amp though. It's measurement for distortion is incredibly well and it has tons of power to drive about anything except for some high ends like Abyss 1266. The sound is so clean and crisp. I haven't tried many amps outside of 789. Topping A90 will be my first amp going out of my comfort zone.

 

[HipHopScribe]

Interesting but when I try to assess some audio gear's performance I spend a lot of effort (well, compared to most people anyways...) on making sure that it's the ears that I'm trusting and not something else. I think it's a good practice to trust your ears. Although sometimes I'm not jumping through all the hoops to form a really informed opinion but at least in these cases I try to not pretend that I do.

What I mean is not to take my own impressions as gospel and to recognize that what I'm hearing is always influenced by other factors. Also not to assume that what I hear is going to line up with what somebody else hears. What I hear is helpful in finding what sound brings me the most enjoyment but it's use beyond that is highly questionable. It might occasionally be helpful to someone else, but often not I'm sure. I approach what anyone else hears the same way, there seem to be far too many people who believe that their ears are infallible and their impressions are something more than highly subjective opinions.

 

[Thenewguy007]

I've been hearing good things about the Topping D90 being the giant killer. It has some of the best measurements in the game. It's in the same price range with my Bifrost and I couldn't tell the difference between Bifrost connecting to THX789 and Monolith Dac connecting to it. They all sound very clean and well separated. Tried to contact Audio46 today, they don't have that dac in house to demo.

I'm not ready to dish out 3k on Yggdrasil yet. Some of the dac from my research goes over 10k. That's asking a bit too much imo. I'll buy Topping D90 on amazon to see if it makes any notable improvement to sounds, if not I'll just return it.

10k? Try $130k from the MSB Select II DAC.