[spacelion2077]

Sorry if this thread has been posted before. I'm thinking about upgrading my Monolith Dac/Amp to a Topping D90 DAC, but after some researches done on audioscience. Their consensus is that there is no audible difference between DACs if your DAC is performing its function properly. What do you guys think about this issue? Why do some guys pay thousand for a Schiit Yggdrasil when you can get a DAC with the same sound at a $100?

 

[megabigeye]

Do you like worms? 'Cause I got a feeling you just opened a big ol' can of 'em!

The objectivists are going to come and say that there's no difference, and then the subjectivists are going to counter that they can hear a difference and so there must be a difference. And then there will be ad hominem attacks, yada yada yada, and the long and short is that you probably won't be any closer to an answer.

The truth is that there isn't any difference so long as the DAC is designed to be audibly transparent. If a DAC is designed to have some sort of coloration, then there could be an audible difference. I'm going to guess, though, that most DACs are designed to be transparent.

To clarify, "audibly transparent" means that there's no coloration, that all distortion, noise, jitter, etc., are below the limits of human hearing. By definition, any two audibly transparent devices will sound identical. (Be careful when reading Head-Fi because not everybody uses this definition of "transparent.")

By the way, the only reason I'd consider upgrading a DAC is if I need (uh, um, want) different features.

 

[HipHopScribe]

I doubt there's any point to spending thousands of dollars on a DAC, likely any $100+ DAC you get in 2020 is transparent in terms of what humans can actually hear. Different digital filter implementations might make very small differences, though in DACs with user switchable filters I personally struggle to tell them apart

 

[SilverEars]

Only way to find out is hear it yourself. - quoted by Audiophile

Because what you hear is what you hear. Somebody shouldn't tell you what you can or cannot hear by telling you that you shouldn't hear something right? I find that that is flaw in 'objective' logic. Notice the quotes around objective.

What you hear is what you hear. What you don't hear is what you don't here. It's very simple.

 

[Happy Camper]

Hey space,
You have a LOT of stores that would be glad to hook up a couple rigs to let you determine for yourself if you hear a difference. My experiences are that as you get better gear, the differences become noticeable. The issue becomes is the difference worth the price in your metrics.

 

[spacelion2077]

Do you like worms? 'Cause I got a feeling you just opened a big ol' can of 'em!

The objectivists are going to come and say that there's no difference, and then the subjectivists are going to counter that they can hear a difference and so there must be a difference. And then there will be ad hominem attacks, yada yada yada, and the long and short is that you probably won't be any closer to an answer.

The truth is that there isn't any difference so long as the DAC is designed to be audibly transparent. If a DAC is designed to have some sort of coloration, then there could be an audible difference. I'm going to guess, though, that most DACs are designed to be transparent.

To clarify, "audibly transparent" means that there's no coloration, that all distortion, noise, jitter, etc., are below the limits of human hearing. By definition, any two audibly transparent devices will sound identical. (Be careful when reading Head-Fi because not everybody uses this definition of "transparent.")

By the way, the only reason I'd consider upgrading a DAC is if I need (uh, um, want) different features.

Sorry I didn't know this topic can lead to heated debates. I think the scientific consensus is that they all sound the same. I was debating to upgrade my DAC to a AKM 4499 chip. Some people even say SMSL M400 has more soundstage than Toppng D90 even when they use the same chip.

Where the the price difference go for example between a Schiit Yggdrasil $3000 and a Topping D90 which only cost only $600

 

[Rattle]

It's not about measurements. Each different dac chip has a bit of its own house sound. Then there's the output stages involved and amp/dac synergy. I wouldn't listen to either camp. Find out for yourself.

 

[spacelion2077]

Has anyone done any blind tests? I haven't tried many DAC myself. My personal dac are Monolith DAC/Amp and Schiit Bifrost. Has anyone tried to upgrade a older DAC to one of the recent models? Does it improve soundstage and imaging? Your input is greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

 

[megabigeye]

Sshhh!!! Don't say blind tests too loudly or this'll get moved to the Sound Science forum!

But seriously, there are some folks in the Sound Science forum that have done blind tests (I have not), and many (most? all?) of them will tell you that there's no difference.

 

[Rattle]

That's because they are either deaf or listening to Dacs that have no difference..

 

[leftside]

It was only a few years ago that for me digital/DAC was purely for "on-the-go" listening. But, since then there have been great improvements in digital technology - so much so that I'm very happy listening to digital music in my listening room with the lights out/eyes shut. Huge differences between different DACs these days - and I've borrowed/listened to a lot. But don't take my word for it. See if you can go to an audio store and listen to a few yourself. Enjoy the journey.

 

[spacelion2077]

Sshhh!!! Don't say blind tests too loudly or this'll get moved to the Sound Science forum!

But seriously, there are some folks in the Sound Science forum that have done blind tests (I have not), and many (most? all?) of them will tell you that there's no difference.

I guess they are just buying expensive DACs just to match up with the rest of the expensive setup regardless if it will actually make any differences in audio quality. An Abyss 1266 TC with Woo audio amplifier probably will the sound the same on a Schiit Modi as it sounds on Yggdrasil

 

[PopZeus]

If you don't think DACs can sound different, you're missing out on a really fun part of the hobby. In my rig, the DAC actually has most of the coloration. The amp is the transparent part.

 

[spacelion2077]

If you don't think DACs can sound different, you're missing out on a really fun part of the hobby. In my rig, the DAC actually has most of the coloration. The amp is the transparent part.

What are some of the DACs you recommend I try? My current setup is Monolith Dac/Amp and Schiit Bifrost with a THX 789 amp. They sound kind similar on my headphones.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Sorry if this thread has been posted before. I'm thinking about upgrading my Monolith Dac/Amp to a Topping D90 DAC, but after some researches done on audioscience. Their consensus is that there is no audible difference between DACs if your DAC is performing its function properly. What do you guys think about this issue? Why do some guys pay thousand for a Schiit Yggdrasil when you can get a DAC with the same sound at a $100?

1. If your source has AES digital output or your amp has balanced input.

2. "Function properly" also includes having the inputs and outputs you prefer. And for balanced analogue connections that's also at 4V, unlike 2V for single ended.

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Would I buy it? No, I wouldn't bother with balanced to begin with.

Would I recommend it? Not really. But anyone else who doesn't have to sacrifice anything else just to get balanced, sure, go ahead.