Do different DACS sound different?

[PopZeus]

What are some of the DACs you recommend I try? My current setup is Monolith Dac/Amp and Schiit Bifrost with a THX 789 amp. They sound kind similar on my headphones.

Oh I don't know how much better it would be than the Bifrost but I'd want to check out the Denfrips Ares II or the Audio-gd R1. If you're looking for a different kind of sound, that is, Just because all DACs don't sound the same doesn't mean you'll like what they bring.

 

[Redcarmoose]

It's an interesting question. Especially when you explore the market. The innovations have been fairly slow and steady as far as what was acceptable to use. I just pulled out my 10 year old DACMagic Plus and hooked it into a 10 year old Schiit Asgard One.

Typically my weapon of choice is a newer 2016 DAP the Sony Walkman 1A. Now other companies use DAC chips to do the decoding..................here it's a set of FPGAs and an encrypted process void of the standard chip method. As a group we can listen to the regulars chime-in and it's a fascinating drama to witness. People are emotional. So for all these years starting in 2006 I was slightly part of this war of ideas. Later after listening a bunch and owning a series of DACs I started to not care. The reason for my emotional separation is that the amplifiers do sound different. The jolly posters that post that 1960 old school tube amps and modern day digital Class-D amps sound the same and wear the skin off their fingers typing are simply 5150. Amps do sound different. So the most balanced way to view it would be whole systems. Whole systems concerning the file playback, the decoding process and the small line-out amp that's at the DAC part of the box, before RCA wires transfer the line out to a pre.

Interesting enough there is an elaborate plan to separate nice audiophiles from their cash on hand. That process goes by creating a mental imaginary world making people think stuff is getting obsolete. New DSD formats with giant file sizes and new chips which process larger files lay the ground work for buyers to start to judge the equipment they own as out-dated.

Of course stuff does get cheaper and equipment IS getting smaller and smaller. There was small DACs 10 years ago, yet now they are in a string that attaches to your phone.

So with the $139 FiiO E17K Alpen 2 you have a great DAC yet it may be held back a little by the amp. And......like the Cambridge Audio DACMagic Plus it does not do DSD.

The methodology to my madness here is that the amp next to the DAC does a bunch in the chain. It could be a tube amp or a Class A like here. The DACMagic is oversampling so us crazy audiophiles believe that this is changing the sound. Does it? I simply don’t care.....the amp and headphones are doing more changing.

Now here is the part that gets spicy..........

What if the introduced DSD Remastering and DSEE HX processes which like wax on your old car added luster? Well that sparkle is in the DAC/Amp process as they are merged into one process by Sony. Again these are added things to DACs which show again that they CAN do small changes. Sony has been developing FPGAs forever and has finally now started implementing them into DSEE HX AI. The AI is suppose to somehow add to the waveform. Yet all this stuff while good................has only a small change in the end. The amp and headphones do more maybe?


What you buy will be different than the neighbors...........though you need to simply discover what sound you like. Just like vinyl, DAC units have distortion (added) (somewhere) as a way of changing (coloring) the sound, but in a good way in a warming way or cooling way. DACs affect the soundstage and pace probably the most due to the onboard amp sections. It's all about finding the sound that helps your headphones to be their best.

 

[spacelion2077]

Oh I don't know how much better it would be than the Bifrost but I'd want to check out the Denfrips Ares II or the Audio-gd R1. If you're looking for a different kind of sound, that is, Just because all DACs don't sound the same doesn't mean you'll like what they bring.

I don't know if Bifrost is a good DAC. I tried connecting Bifrost to THX 789 and Monolith DAC/AMP to THX 789. They both sound very clean with good separation. I don't know much more money I have to pay to hear an audible difference. I've heard good things about the latest AKM 4499 chip, not sure if anyone has used it. .

 

[spacelion2077]

It's an interesting question. Especially when you explore the market. The innovations have been fairly slow and steady as far as what was acceptable to use. I just pulled out my 10 year old DACMagic Plus and hooked it into a 10 year old Schiit Asgard One.



Typically my weapon of choice is a newer 2016 DAP the Sony Walkman 1A. Now other companies use DAC chips to do the decoding..................here it's a set of FPGAs and an encrypted process void of the standard chip process. As a group we can listen to the regulars chime-in and it's a fascinating process to witness. People are emotional. So for all these years starting in 2006 I was slightly part of this war of ideas. Later after listening a bunch and owning a series of DACs I started to not care. The reason for my emotional separation is that the amplifiers do sound different. The jolly posters that post that 1960 old school tube amps and modern day digital Class-D amps sound the same and wear the skin off their fingers typing are simply 5150. Amps do sound different. So the most balanced way to view it would be whole systems. Whole systems concerning the file playback, the decoding process and the small line-out amp that's at the DAC part of the box, before RCA wires transfer the line out to a pre.



Interesting enough there is an elaborate plan to separate nice audiophiles from there cash on hand. That process goes by creating a mental imaginary world making people think stuff is getting obsolete. New DSD formats with giant file sizes and new chips which process larger files lay the ground work fo buyers to start to judge the equipment they own as dated.

Of course stuff does get cheaper and equipment IS getting smaller and smaller. There was small DACs 10 years ago, yet now they are in a string that attaches to your phone.


So with the $139 FiiO E17K Alpen 2 you have a great DAC yet it may be held back a little by the amp. And......like the Cambridge Audio DACMagic Plus it does not do DSD.

The methodology to my madness here is that the amp next to the DAC does a bunch in the chain. It could be a tube amp or a Class A like here. The DACMagic is oversampling so us crazy audiophiles believe that this is changing the sound. Is it? I simply don care. As the amp and headphones are doing more changing.



Now here is the part that gets spicy..........

What if the introduced DSD Remastering and DSEE HX processes which like wax on your old car added luster. Well that sparkle and shine is before the amp. Again these are added things to DACs which show again that this scientific matter does not mean anything.

Why.........Because what you buy WILL sound different and you simply need to discover what sound you like. Just like vinyl, DAC units have distortion (added) (somewhere) as a way of changing (coloring) the sound, but in a good way in a warming way. It's all about the sound that helps your headphones to be their best.

Thanks a lot for your input. So like tube amp, it's good to have distortions on some DAC to spice up the favor? What kind of DAC do you use or recommend to someone who uses amps like THX 789 or Topping A90?

 

[Happy Camper]

So several people have recommended hearing for yourself. This can be done a few ways. Meets. This is fun and you get to visit with like minded hobbyists. Buy and try gets pretty expensive but you can drop it into your system. The last is going to a store that provides a good selection and ask them how one would go about comparing DACs. A few of us have been able to listen to gear well out of our budgets by doing this. You'll find a good sales rep. will be excited to share their knowledge and show off their products. Preproman and I brought our HE-6s and laptop in and used a Wavelength Brick to sample several speaker amps. Yes Toto, you can hear differences in the signal chain.

https://audio46.com/collections/amplifiers-and-dacs

 

[Redcarmoose]

I’m driving get back to you.

Thanks a lot for your input. So like tube amp, it's good to have distortions on some DAC to spice up the favor? What kind of DAC do you use or recommend to someone who uses amps like THX 789 or Topping A90?

 

[spacelion2077]

So several people have recommended hearing for yourself. This can be done a few ways. Meets. This is fun and you get to visit with like minded hobbyists. Buy and try gets pretty expensive but you can drop it into your system. The last is going to a store that provides a good selection and ask them how one would go about comparing DACs. A few of us have been able to listen to gear well out of our budgets by doing this. You'll find a good sales rep. will be excited to share their knowledge and show off their products.

https://audio46.com/collections/amplifiers-and-dacs

Audio46 is in NY? I can definitely visit it, not sure if they let customer demo their gadgets. Where can I find meets in NY? I just got into headphone this year but got a few decent cans (Sens HD 800s, Meze Emprean, Final D8000 and Abyss 1266 TC) Would love to share them with like minded people. As for DAC, as for now I don't know how much money is required to hear a difference. I've been hearing good things about Topping D90, will it make a difference at the way my headphone sounds? I'll see if Audio46 has one in store I can demo

 

[Happy Camper]

Audio46 is in NY? I can definitely visit it, not sure if they let customer demo their gadgets. Where can I find meets in NY? I just got into headphone this year but got a few decent cans (Sens HD 800s, Meze Emprean, Final D8000 and Abyss 1266 TC) Would love to share them with like minded people. As for DAC, as for now I don't know how much money is required to hear a difference. I've been hearing good things about Topping D90, will it make a difference at the way my headphone sounds? I'll see if Audio46 has one in store I can demo

Check out the Meets forum for meet locations and dates. https://www.head-fi.org/forums/local-regional-head-fi-meets-parties-get-togethers.24/

 

[PopZeus]

I don't know if Bifrost is a good DAC. I tried connecting Bifrost to THX 789 and Monolith DAC/AMP to THX 789. They both sound very clean with good separation. I don't know much more money I have to pay to hear an audible difference. I've heard good things about the latest AKM 4499 chip, not sure if anyone has used it. .

With multibit DACs, I think it's better to go with discrete resistor ladders, rather than what Schiit has done with their designs. That's why I was recommending those implementations. Everyone who would recommend spending around $700 for a DAC would pick the Ares II over the Bifrost. Anyways, D-S chip DACs have definitely gotten better at a lower cost, and R-2R DACs have gotten more affordable as well, so there is less of a difference between the two technologies than there used to be. But it isn't about how much money they cost either. Both the R2R11 and RDAC are cheaper than the Bifrost and to my ears I might prefer both.

Again, it isn't about accuracy. DACs can sound different if they're not trying to achieve some objectively perfect spec. Topping's DACs have always measured well. They only started sounding great recently.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Thanks a lot for your input. So like tube amp, it's good to have distortions on some DAC to spice up the favor? What kind of DAC do you use or recommend to someone who uses amps like THX 789 or Topping A90?

Not sure what DAC.

Just think of it basically like a iPhone or iPod is neutral as they really do measure very correct. Yet the audiophile experience can be from those who believe in enjoying higher bit-rate examples as they believe they can hear it. So many DACs offer bells and whistles which may or may not be important. It's like every DAC today does everything.

So think of putting that phone inside a guitar body. Now we are adding tone. Adding color and adding maybe a different placement of imaging. Each DAC can do that. Also the treble can be taken up which could be looked at as a form of distortion.........really it's color. They (the amps in the DACs) or the process added like DSD Remastering or Oversampling are thought to add back the wave form adding to mp3 or even adding to 16/44.1..........but whatever is happening it’s character. Many don't believe there is scientific evidence to what Oversampling does. Yet DAC builders use the term and process to sell 100s of thousands of DACs. With this character we can mix and match DACs. Our confusion starts as we can actually hear this treble-color-distortion as an improvement. It's because we as listeners find new tone exciting. More treble less bass, better timing. It does not matter where this is coming from as long as we are ready to accept that it’s different and use the difference to gain synergy.

Still the only way to know if the DAC is right is by a long use.

 

[GoodEnoughGear]

For now I'd ignore the WHAT you are listening to and focus on the HOW:

https://www.soundgym.co/

Play with EQ, play with free effects and just learn to hear the subtleties of musical reproduction.

Then come back and see if DACs make a difference or not for yourself.

 

[Monsterzero]

Audio46 is in NY? I can definitely visit it, not sure if they let customer demo their gadgets. Where can I find meets in NY? I just got into headphone this year but got a few decent cans (Sens HD 800s, Meze Emprean, Final D8000 and Abyss 1266 TC) Would love to share them with like minded people. As for DAC, as for now I don't know how much money is required to hear a difference. I've been hearing good things about Topping D90, will it make a difference at the way my headphone sounds? I'll see if Audio46 has one in store I can demo

For only being into the hobby for a short time you have a nice collection of headphones, and you should be able to hear differences in various DACs with them.
Some DACs are brighter, others warmer(R2R), some have more bass, while others throw a larger image, some have better staging, etc...

Prior to Covid, Audio46 absolutely allowed in-store demos. Not sure about currently though.

 

[kumar402]

It's all about the chain. Some amps and headphones will reveal subtle differences that different DAC chips or their implementation offer but some amp or headphone may mask all the differences. Higher you go up the chain more important DAC becomes and based on your preference you can opt for R2R NOS or newer generation DAC chip.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Thanks a lot for your input. So like tube amp, it's good to have distortions on some DAC to spice up the favor? What kind of DAC do you use or recommend to someone who uses amps like THX 789 or Topping A90?

Probably the best word to use here is color. Distortion sounds like a guitar amp, when we are trying to relay how the amp is taking the overall tone and adding something. I had a buddy who was testing this DAC for a week, and his whole complex was that it was slightly brighter. So maybe his old DAC was dark, maybe more neutral and transparent, but what ever it was this new DAC with treble got him to think it was way more detail. All of us are trying to balance detail with not too much brightness and enough low end punch with out the sound slowing down by the bass waves connecting at some point. It's all about PRAT and tone, and soundstage and how fast the transients are. Along with that there needs to be a feeling of timbre which allows us to feel the music is natural and real.



In the old-school audiophile world they thought everything they were buying was transparent. All you heard was transparent. And in 1989 the idea of the audiophile signature was very clear and neutral.......so time passed and you ended with two dramatically different audiophiles. One was a bass head and one more neutral, also to add a third it would be people that like extreme treble. Later too just a couple of years ago the Harman Curve was introduced. Interestingly enough to us now the Harman Curve seems to have more bass? Well it's a presence in that area. So Harman has suggested this curve as how the general public "could" interpret the graphed out response as natural.

Natural is just us accepting the music as the way it is suppose to be. Yet again your first job is to find out your preferences.

Hot sounding.......Cold sounding........Bright............all these terms.......yet happiness is finding the bath water just right.To our perception we don't want stuff too bass laden or too bright.

The problem is you simply have to live with this gear till you know it's right. Even people who have had lots of systems and done this for years have different days where they like different gear.

So find a brand you think you may like and read peoples stories. Typically going to a Head-Fi meet will help but this is really something you have to concern yourself with over the course of months to get it right. I came from vinyl so I didn't even have a CD player or CDs for years. I ended with a very warm DAC in my Rega Planet CD player and I was happy. Thus you get to know yourself. Now every DAC does everything. The new streaming services and even networking can come into play as things to look for when making a purchase. But I'm still not sure how much DSD helps? I do know I like 24bit. But........there is so much psychology involved. If we are told something is better we believe it. That is what sales is. Yet in audio it causes a confirmation bias. We are told DSD is better and it sounds better.

So I can't help with products but try and explain my journey and how it progressed. Also in the journey keeping all your old gear, if you can.......................can help with learning to actually hear your progress. The old equipment is like snap shots of the past listening....you. Also you may start to define a gradual progression. People have specific trajectories where they end up with different sounding gear than they would have liked when they started.

There is no right or wrong, but also there is not one DAC for everyone. If I was starting out I would barrow one and spend days trying to figure out what I liked and what was off. The Sony DAPs have been an experience as the firmware was changed by hobbyists and the sound evolved. The sound got better and for some, we discovered new romance that comes with a tone that sounds right, but also has realism. Once you start locking into a tone, the equipment falls away and your left with pure music.

That's the point when you can get off the purchasing train as your at your success.

Cheers!

 

[Redcarmoose]

It's all about the chain. Some amps and headphones will reveal subtle differences that different DAC chips or their implementation offer but some amp or headphone may mask all the differences. Higher you go up the chain more important DAC becomes and based on your preference you can opt for R2R NOS or newer generation DAC chip.

Exactly everything matters. It all has to go together at some point. Or it has to add balance or take the end sound in the direction the buyer is trying to go.