[bigshot]

yup

 

[teknorob23]

I was a networking engineer instructor in a past life - I know how switches, routers and other networking gear works - quite well. I work in cloud networking software engineering in my current occupation, and "audiophile switches" are fraud.

There are multiple mechanisms employed by (layer 2) switches, and then additional mechanisms employed by your network interface card, routers, the TCP/IP stack on both ends of the stream, and the application itself (Spotify, etc), on both client and server side, to ensure that you're not getting faulty bits. Faulty bits are detected and retransmitted. Packet loss is mitigated by streaming apps buffering the data ahead so you don't experience "skips".

Consumer switches are a solved problem and have been for a while - they got cheap AND good, years ago. As Amir pointed out in his video - consumer switches operate years without even a single frame altered or dropped, and even if that happened, as I explained in the previous paragraph there's dozens of mechanisms in place at different layers of the stack to mitigate L2 errors of any kind.

Audiophile switches are fraud.

Amir makes a lot of of very good points but he misses the main issue which causes streamed versus say CD sourced having generally poorer sound quality, is not related to the data, or lost packets, etc, its to do with electronic interference picked up from and emitted by devices on the network, which then piggy backs the data stream via the ethernet and entering the streamer and the effects it has on here and moving into the digital analogue conversion.

It would be great to hear a bit more about your system and what devices you have tried.

If you havent already can I suggest a simple and risk free listening test, buy D-Link DGs105 (or any other good generic switch) and ifi 5v ipower ($70'ish), from amazon which you can return, stick in your system between your router and streamer, and see if you hear a difference. Also try with the supplied PSU and the ifi. If you'd like to share a bit more info about your listening set up. And for record i dont sell either of these devices or have any relationship to anyone who does. I have listened to dozens of switches, generic and so called audiophile, in both in our systems and those of customers and they all sound different, not always better but audibly different nonetheless.

 

[Roseval]

its to do with electronic interference picked up from and emitted by devices on the network, which then piggy backs the data stream via the ethernet and entering the streamer and the effects it has on here and moving into the digital analogue conversion.

An ethernet port is galvanically isolated from the network.
That is part of the standard.
If it would work the way you described, it would be very easy to measure it because it manifest itself at the analog out of the DAC.
Up to now nobody has been able to provided this measurements simply because it doesn’t work this way.

 

[teknorob23]

An ethernet port is galvanically isolated from the network.
That is part of the standard.
If it would work the way you described, it would be very easy to measure it because it manifest itself at the analog out of the DAC.
Up to now nobody has been able to provided this measurements simply because it doesn’t work this way.

Galvanic isolation doesn't really prevent the transmission high frequency rfi. Have you listened to any?

 

[Roseval]

No.
If a manufacturer can’t supply proper measurements substantiating his claims, I won’t waste my time listening to his products.

 

[teknorob23]

No.
If a manufacturer can’t supply proper measurements substantiating his claims, I won’t waste my time listening to his products.

entirely your prerogative, but as i say i dont make these things i was merely suggesting you should have a listen in the most risk free way possible to confirm your assumptions for sure.

 

[bfreedma]

Amir makes a lot of of very good points but he misses the main issue which causes streamed versus say CD sourced having generally poorer sound quality, is not related to the data, or lost packets, etc, its to do with electronic interference picked up from and emitted by devices on the network, which then piggy backs the data stream via the ethernet and entering the streamer and the effects it has on here and moving into the digital analogue conversion.

It would be great to hear a bit more about your system and what devices you have tried.

If you havent already can I suggest a simple and risk free listening test, buy D-Link DGs105 (or any other good generic switch) and ifi 5v ipower ($70'ish), from amazon which you can return, stick in your system between your router and streamer, and see if you hear a difference. Also try with the supplied PSU and the ifi. If you'd like to share a bit more info about your listening set up. And for record i dont sell either of these devices or have any relationship to anyone who does. I have listened to dozens of switches, generic and so called audiophile, in both in our systems and those of customers and they all sound different, not always better but audibly different nonetheless.

If what you claim is true (it isn't), then it would be easily measurable. Please provide measurements supporting your claim. You can't of course, because even though a vendor producing these would lead to incredible sales, they never appear. How odd...

The technical realities of the 802 standard have been explained here several times, yet we still have people insisting that despite the lack of any objective evidence, we should "go listen". Fortunately, science doesn't operate that way - I don't, for example, need to jump off every tall building to prove gravity functions at each location. Just as I don't have to perform a listening test of every cable to prove the 802 standard functions as documented.

But as usual, there are those who will claim that literally every part of audio reproduction is somehow "special" and doesn't follow the normal standards for electronics and data transmission that serve multiple billions of other devices properly every second of every day.

 

[marcelnl]

Perhaps you should try that jump experiment, as there are some serious debates about gravity https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...y-would-have-be-really-weird-cosmologists-say

At that same note; There is a trend to re-iterate standards that say how networks work, yet there is a snag; those documents fail to explain or describe/address sonic differences or how they ought to be impossible. Science usually is not about proving you are right but done by trying to prove your theory is wrong.

Observation:
I swapped a router (galvanically isolating my ISP router and my computer by having TWO switches using UTP) for a stretch of fiber optic, same ISP same computer, same switches, same audio kit, same files, and the sonic difference is very real.
I for one am unable to explain the why, I simply observe that it happens, same goes for other 'mystical' effects in the digital part of my audio chain.

Before anyone goes there; No, I do not see any improvement whatsoever in the files I'm working on when using an HDMI cable made from silver spun at midnight by fairies between my laptop and secondary screen. Now come to think of it; perhaps we should listen to those files rather than view them

Something causes a clear audible difference and I do not expect any zero's to have become one's or vice versa, still my observation does not go away with what I have been taught about how digital and networks work.

The absence of evidence does not mean the evidence is absent...I am getting a bit bored by (nobody in person) the somewhat easy demand for proof by folks who apparently did not try what has been described by plenty folks (empirical evidence does have it's place in science) and never critically listened to any such suggested change in network setup in a decent set of audio kit. Dismissing observations is IMO not good science, for a couple of decades common believe was that the earth was flat, based on doctrine rather than observations as those who came forward with observations were at the risk of losing life (interestingly there is evidence earlier civilizations knew the world to be a globe).

Explaining how the world works did not happen by having a book with natures laws lying around, observations came first, then theories and often followed by proof and a theory is help up...for as long as the latter lasts, as there are cases where we find out that new or adapted theories are needed. Just for fun: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/mar/23/large-hadron-collider-scientists-particle-physics

so please do experiment, with an open mind, perhaps we can all learn by finding a theory to explain the phenomenon, even if temporarily.

 

[bfreedma]

Perhaps you should try that jump experiment, as there are some serious debates about gravity https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...y-would-have-be-really-weird-cosmologists-say

At that same note; There is a trend to re-iterate standards that say how networks work, yet there is a snag; those documents fail to explain or describe/address sonic differences or how they ought to be impossible. Science usually is not about proving you are right but done by trying to prove your theory is wrong.

Observation:
I swapped a router (galvanically isolating my ISP router and my computer by having TWO switches using UTP) for a stretch of fiber optic, same ISP same computer, same switches, same audio kit, same files, and the sonic difference is very real.
I for one am unable to explain the why, I simply observe that it happens, same goes for other 'mystical' effects in the digital part of my audio chain.

Before anyone goes there; No, I do not see any improvement whatsoever in the files I'm working on when using an HDMI cable made from silver spun at midnight by fairies between my laptop and secondary screen. Now come to think of it; perhaps we should listen to those files rather than view them

Something causes a clear audible difference and I do not expect any zero's to have become one's or vice versa, still my observation does not go away with what I have been taught about how digital and networks work.

The absence of evidence does not mean the evidence is absent...I am getting a bit bored by (nobody in person) the somewhat easy demand for proof by folks who apparently did not try what has been described by plenty folks (empirical evidence does have it's place in science) and never critically listened to any such suggested change in network setup in a decent set of audio kit. Dismissing observations is IMO not good science, for a couple of decades common believe was that the earth was flat, based on doctrine rather than observations as those who came forward with observations were at the risk of losing life (interestingly there is evidence earlier civilizations knew the world to be a globe).

Explaining how the world works did not happen by having a book with natures laws lying around, observations came first, then theories and often followed by proof and a theory is help up...for as long as the latter lasts, as there are cases where we find out that new or adapted theories are needed. Just for fun: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/mar/23/large-hadron-collider-scientists-particle-physics

so please do experiment, with an open mind, perhaps we can all learn by finding a theory to explain the phenomenon, even if temporarily.

When your "observations" enable a viable theory to be proposed, let alone supported by evidence, there will be something to discuss. Until then, I'll be sticking with Ethernet standards and over 4 decades of experience implementing, monitoring, and managing critical network infrastructure.

Unfortunately, all that's being presented are sighted subjective opinions without any viable theory, let alone supporting evidence. A measurement showing audible differences, measurements showing electrical impact, or a statistically significant ABX test should be done by the manufacturers and/or their customers in support of the marketing. Yet we never see them.

As stated earlier, according to audiophiles, somehow this happens all of the time in audio and never in any critical environment where performance is measured. The burden of proof is entirely on the manufacturers and the customers making claims, not on those applying known science to extremely well tested standards.

 

[Roseval]

a theory to explain the phenomenon

It has been discovered more than a century ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray
It is what happens if your testing is not "blind".

It happens to all of us and is inherent to our perception.
One day I played a track in JRiver and right after it exactly the same track in MusicBee, JRiver sounds darker, fuller and Musicbee lighter and more transparant.
The difference is very clear.
Don't ask me why because both media players are configured for bit perfect playback.
Obvious media players do have a sonic signature, I heard it myself.

Of course I don't belief this to be true as there is no hard evidence for what is often called software induced jitter.
Hence I asked my wife to conduct the experiment.
She randomly choose either JRiver or Musicbee.
I of course don't know what she has chosen.
Now I'm totally unable to tell them apart.
That is how our perception works.
It is hard not to hear differences if you 'know' something has changed.

 

[teknorob23]

When your "observations" enable a viable theory to be proposed, let alone supported by evidence, there will be something to discuss. Until then, I'll be sticking with Ethernet standards and over 4 decades of experience implementing, monitoring, and managing critical network infrastructure.

Unfortunately, all that's being presented are sighted subjective opinions without any viable theory, let alone supporting evidence. A measurement showing audible differences, measurements showing electrical impact, or a statistically significant ABX test should be done by the manufacturers and/or their customers in support of the marketing. Yet we never see them.

As stated earlier, according to audiophiles, somehow this happens all of the time in audio and never in any critical environment where performance is measured. The burden of proof is entirely on the manufacturers and the customers making claims, not on those applying known science to extremely well tested standards.

you really should have a listen, whats the worse that could happen?..

 

[marcelnl]

you really should have a listen, whats the worse that could happen?..

exactly that....be daring and travel to the abyss at the end of the flat world...to find out the world is not flat...

 

[navr]

Hi,
Found this thread on r/audiophile and thought it might be of interest for the community.
Anyone with first hand experience with mentioned product who would like to share a point of view?

Switches have been debunked by ultra-precise spectrum measurements with Audio Science Review (the measurement process and diagrams presented on their Youtube channel).

For what it’s worth, I have used the etheregen and about dozen other “audiophile” and “generic” switches varying in cost from £20 to £5,000. They all alter the sound of my system, some for better and others not so much. A switch is pretty vital part of improving the performance of streaming based system. It eliminates some of the noise picked up and emitted by the router, which without the switch, would otherwise piggy the data stream transmitted via the network cable acting as an aerial, directly into your highly sensitive streamer and on into the digital to analogue conversion. The switch will also emit noise of its own picked up via its power supply, so a quiet psu will improve things further.

From our listening tests a £20 d-link dgs105 with an ifi ipower was as effective as the etheregen, and in fact sounded more open with wider stage. The good news for skeptics is you can buy this pair from Amazon for less than $70, try it, if you hear a difference then it’s worth trying out a good cable and or a filter running between your switch and streamer. Of course if it doesn’t improve things just return it and move on.

I know I’m a member of the trade, but I don’t make or sell switches, but as i say I have listened to lot in my system and others. The switch isn’t the cure but it’s an important foundation in any streaming system.

Do you have links to that dlink switch and ifi power?

 

[sander99]

whats the worse that could happen?

"wasting a whole morning"

(From aformentioned link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray)

Why would I bother even for one minute if the chance of anything being there is less than 1 in 10 to the power 10 to the power 10 to the power 10?

Expectation bias / perceptual error / incorrect experiment can and for sure must be the explanation for your experiences.
If measurements with a precision many many many times below audibility indicate no difference at all then there is no need to investigate any further.

And again: let the manufacturers and sellers prove it, if they could they would, but of course they can't.

If one has an open mind everytime some snake oil salesman comes up with something new... that is called gullibility.

 

[bfreedma]

you really should have a listen, whats the worse that could happen?..

As I’ve told you before, I have listened. I’ve also examined the output of ”audiophile” routers vs. standard routers. I’m fortunate to have access to an Enterprise monitoring solution and have done long term analysis. No difference.

Now that we have that out of the way, when will you be presenting objective evidence supporting your claim. Routers/switches are amongst the easiest devices to blind test. Simply change between two SSIDs if you run wireless or move the cable between the switches and flush involved caches. What’s the worst that could happen?